Dear Google Cloud: Your Deprecation Policy Is Killing You • Hacker News Board

Re: Dear Google Cloud: Your Deprecation Policy Is Killing You

#351

Post by lowiqengineer » Sat, Aug 15, 2020, 10:07 PM UTC

freyr wrote: post #350

lowiqengineer wrote: post #314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Lots of teams in Google have restrictive travel policies and never see the pointy end of a plane. Which ones do and don't? Because all of the ones I've heard of have pretty loose ones compared to my organization. And yes, Amazon doesn't cheap out on real estate because we own so much of it . It's honestly remarkable how it's done. But I was under the impression everyone knows they pay less.

Do you not realize how much AMZN appreciated over the last 5 or 10 years compared to FB or GOOG? Many Amazon engineers came out way ahead financially compared to their FANG peers.

FB and GOOG provide more stock and more refreshers. I think its hard to say AMZN engineers have come out ahead consistently.

I only have about ~40 stocks up from about 35 before the refresh cycle (unvested) and that's unlikely to go up if I get promoted (if you have too many they don't give you more). Googler and FB refresher values are significantly higher.

Re: Dear Google Cloud: Your Deprecation Policy Is Killing You

#352

Post by mips_avatar » Sat, Aug 15, 2020, 10:18 PM UTC

username90 wrote: post #241

mips_avatar wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t know about other locations, but in Seattle the googlers and SpaceX people walk around with a lot of swagger. And you don’t have to talk to them long until workplaces get brought up and a small jab at Amazon or Microsoft is made. Which idk maybe is fair if they used to work at Amazon/Microsoft. But still I wish we weren’t so intent on maintaining a hierarchy. Maybe we just all need to develop more of a life ou…

Maybe you just don't notice the googlers who don't go around with a lot of swagger?

Good point, I’m only noticing the people wearing workplace swag/bringing up their workplace. I don’t notice people who don’t bring it up.

Re: Dear Google Cloud: Your Deprecation Policy Is Killing You

#353

Post by aynyc » Sat, Aug 15, 2020, 10:21 PM UTC

dividuum wrote: post #191

Illniyar wrote: post #150

> I’m not actively developing on AWS, so I don’t have as much of a sense for how often they sunset APIs that they have previously dangled alluringly before unwitting developers. SimpleDB still works, it's not even deprecated or grandfathered to not accept new users. There is really nothing else you need to know about how AWS treats deprecation than that single example. Deprecation is practically unheard of in AWS. If…

Another example: There was a change to how objects within S3 could be addressed by http(s): https://aws.amazon.com/blogs/aws/amazon-s3-path-deprecation-... Initially the (justified) change gave you ~18 months to implement necessary changes. Seems feedback was negative regardless, so they modified it in a way so current usage remains unaffected.

They didn't have a choice, their internal teams weren't ready for S3 SigV4. For example, EMR was not ready for SigV4. That means ton of customers can't use EMR.

Re: Dear Google Cloud: Your Deprecation Policy Is Killing You

#354

Post by School-Cotton » Sat, Aug 15, 2020, 10:26 PM UTC

sitkack wrote: post #66

> Let’s say hypothetically that Apple was dumb enough to pull a Guido van Rossum, and declare that Swift 6.0 is backwards-incompatible with Swift 5.0, much in the way that Python 3 is incompatible with Python 2. Damn, I was waiting for this. The whole essay was a setup for this paragraph. Reframes the argument using a shared traumatic experience for everyone. This humanizes the effect, we all know someone that lost s…

Apple is AFAICT the least concerned of all the major platform vendors about backwards compatibility. Programs routinely stop working on new releases of macOS or iOS, sometimes in ways that are impossible to fix. On Mac they’ve already changed processor architectures twice and look poised to do so again. That’s much more disruptive than the python 2 to 3 migration.

Re: Dear Google Cloud: Your Deprecation Policy Is Killing You

#355

Post by ikiris » Sat, Aug 15, 2020, 10:28 PM UTC

RonanTheGrey wrote: post #328

username90 wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe you just don't notice the googlers who don't go around with a lot of swagger?

The counter-case would be, "Do you also notice people from other companies who walk around with swagger?" Not living in that area anymore, I can't say. I haven't lived there for 10 years.

its worth noting the size differences of the various companies in terms of employee count. Part of this is simple statistics.

Re: Dear Google Cloud: Your Deprecation Policy Is Killing You

#356

Post by amznthrowaway5 » Sat, Aug 15, 2020, 10:51 PM UTC

hdfhu wrote: post #330

corin_ wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Obviously having people that care about the work they do is a positive thing, but there are plenty of people in plenty of industries managing to do a good job despite only being in it for the money. It might not be a good business decision for Google, but surely if they create enough positions that are solely focussed on the boring stuff but are paid better to make up for it, there is a price point at which they'd ge…

That would be a career suicide to become a support engineer like this. 4 years later, when his stocks dry out, he'd have to switch the company and he'd need to tell a convincing story why the new company should pay him the new market rate. And "I supported legacy code" is not such a story. There's always an option to go to Microsoft and support legacy stuff for life, but beware that MS pays peanuts (relatively speaki…

If you have an understanding of the product, it is not difficult to come up with a convincing story.

MS pay is actually competitive for external hires, although internal raises aren't usually very high.

Re: Dear Google Cloud: Your Deprecation Policy Is Killing You

#357

Post by sitkack » Sat, Aug 15, 2020, 10:54 PM UTC

sitkack wrote: post #66

> Let’s say hypothetically that Apple was dumb enough to pull a Guido van Rossum, and declare that Swift 6.0 is backwards-incompatible with Swift 5.0, much in the way that Python 3 is incompatible with Python 2. Damn, I was waiting for this. The whole essay was a setup for this paragraph. Reframes the argument using a shared traumatic experience for everyone. This humanizes the effect, we all know someone that lost s…

I am slightly disappointed that folks choose to focus on Swift in this quote. The essay was pointing out how GCP deprecates products and makes users rewriting running applications. This is akin to forcing a Python2/3 split with nearly every deprecation.

Re: Dear Google Cloud: Your Deprecation Policy Is Killing You

#358

Post by john-shaffer » Sat, Aug 15, 2020, 11:20 PM UTC

ithkuil wrote: post #192

Ysx wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bitnami broke their MongoDB Helm chart. We're careful to pin versions, and hadn't anticipated someone would re-write history and break published code. Can't get too upset, we don't pay them anything. Not in a rush to use them again though.

Have you reached out to (community) support? My colleagues there tend to do their best to help the community. EDIT Disclaimer: I work for Bitnami; not in that team though. I reached out internally to see if this is a known issue, but it's Saturday... EDIT 2: does the downvote mean bitnami community support is so bad or did my wording offend anybody?

There are lots of random downvotes for no real reason. Sometimes perfectly ordinary posts are dead. I try to upvote gray posts if they're not worthless.

That said, my take (and that of siblings) is that I'm much better off building my own containers than serving as unpaid Q&A for Bitnami. It would be smart to use containers built by people more expert than I am. Containers that are broken by default do not meet that criteria. So, "reach out to community support" is not helpful to people that have already decided to ditch Bitnami.

> We're careful to pin versions, and hadn't anticipated someone would re-write history and break published code.

This is exactly the kind of thing that will make me ditch a company forever and never look back.

Re: Dear Google Cloud: Your Deprecation Policy Is Killing You

#359

Post by _dps » Sat, Aug 15, 2020, 11:50 PM UTC

overgard wrote: post #348

Avamander wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't get the Python3 bw-incompatibility hate. Getting rid of cruft is literally the only way to get rid of cruft. It's literally the Pythonic to not have cruft. I dread the day Python will be as bloated as C++ or Java, neither that dare to remove things.

Probably less to do with backwards compat then how it was handled. The first few versions of python 3 didn't really provide any compelling benefit, (indeed things like performance were worse, not better), and most people didn't _care_ about the cruft it removed. The "print" statement being a great example. Was it kind of weird? Sure. Did that weirdness have any consequences at all? Not really. Was it worth it to forc…

Agree with everything you said here, but let me riff on this

> The "print" statement being a great example. Was it kind of weird? Sure.

I am reminded of the Emerson quip "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds". The Py2 print statement is special/weird because it is a very important and special behavior, especially for newcomers. It's not randomly special, it's special because it models something that deserves special treatment.

Py3 is more consistent, but less humane. I use it over Py2 only because the market has moved on, but every time I type print with parentheses I curse Guido.

Re: Dear Google Cloud: Your Deprecation Policy Is Killing You

#360

Post by efreak » Sat, Aug 15, 2020, 11:56 PM UTC

toast0 wrote: post #47

userbinator wrote: post #27

It's odd to see an article emphasising backwards compatibility, but not a single mention of Microsoft (I even ctrl+F'd the page source to check!) They've regressed a bit in the recent years but I'd still consider MS the gold standard for back-compat. I have Win32 binaries I last modified over 15 years ago, small (or perhaps tiny - size measured in KBs) utilities that I use daily. They worked perfectly on Win95, and s…

You missed this: > I’ll also give a shout-out to our friends in the Operating Systems business: Windows, Linux, NOT APPLE FUCK YOU APPLE, FreeBSD, and so on, for doing such a great job of backwards compatibility on their successful platforms. I share your desire for stability. I don't necessarily mind frequent updates for security reasons, but I'm getting to the point where if things are changing in big ways often, I…

Linux code might be backwards compatible, but nothing like windows. I can run pbrush.exe taken from Windows 95 on windows 10, and it works fine. Want to run a 10yo binary on Linux? It's easier to set up a VM with a 10yo Linux release on it. You've hot the source code and you can compile it? Well, tough, the build tools have changed, and some autoconf script has been removed, even from autoconf-archive.