Airlines flying empty planes to keep flight slots during coronavirus outbreak • Hacker News Board

Re: Airlines flying empty planes to keep flight slots during coronavirus outbreak

#351

Post by milliondollar » Sun, Mar 08, 2020, 9:42 PM UTC

natmaka wrote: post #257

AFAIK this is common practice in many armies, where each group obtains a predetermined amount ('dotation') of goods (gas, ammo, clothes...) for a given period (often a year), uses whatever it needs, then an accounting process takes into account whatever wasn't used in order to calculate the next dotation. It seems consistent and efficient. However it neglects human nature. The soldiers want to avoid missing anything,…

Yes, in the Army there is even a term for this: spendex. (spend exercise). A lot of fun blowing through all your extra ammo at the end of the year!!!

Re: Airlines flying empty planes to keep flight slots during coronavirus outbreak

#352

Post by closeparen » Mon, Mar 09, 2020, 12:55 AM UTC

SECProto wrote: post #202

closeparen wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The government can only give away slices of a fixed resource for so long. Eventually it runs out. You literally can't start an airline from scratch. You have to first buy one that already has landing slots, then figure out how to dispose of the planes/staff/operations/debts that come with the package. Is that really better for competition than just having a market for slots?

> You literally can't start an airline from scratch. Gonna need a citation on this one. I would guess the actual reason airlines are hard to start from scratch is the massive capital required, but would be interested in having this guess proven incorrect. Porter Airlines in Canada (which presumably has a very similar regulatory regime) was started from scratch about 20 years ago.

Porter tried to go around the problem by partnering with the government to revive a disused island airport, accessible only by ferry. Part of the deal was going to be a bridge.

The community organized vigorously against the prospect of new flights, and succeeded in kneecapping Porter by killing the bridge.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porter_Airlines#History

Re: Airlines flying empty planes to keep flight slots during coronavirus outbreak

#353

Post by closeparen » Mon, Mar 09, 2020, 1:03 AM UTC

SECProto wrote: post #301

mcarmichael wrote: post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Porter Airlines appears to have started in an entirely unique regulatory regime, actually: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porter_Airlines In particular, airline monopoly control over allocation of terminal resources at an airport is not a useful prerequisite to generalize from.

> Porter Airlines appears to have started in an entirely unique regulatory regime, actually I did a quick skim of that wiki article (skimmed a couple sections, ctrl+f'd for "regulat" and "monopoly"), but couldn't find anything about a unique regulatory regime. There has been regulatory issues with the Toronto Island Airport (where porter wants to extend the runway to allow jets to land, but no one* else wants this),…

No one wanted it because it would have meant more flights. That's precisely my point. There is no such thing as new traffic capacity anymore. You can only take it from someone else.

Re: Airlines flying empty planes to keep flight slots during coronavirus outbreak

#354

Post by sova » Mon, Mar 09, 2020, 2:14 AM UTC

masklinn wrote: post #339

sova wrote: post #338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Out of curiosity, how would a "libertarian" propose we achieve economic anything without large individual concentrations of wealth?

The wording of your question confuses me, it's not clear whether you're asking about "large individual concentrations of wealth" as a cause or effect of "economic anything", aka are you asking how one can achieve economic anything without a pre-conditional individual concentrations of wealth or are you asking how one can achieve economic anything while avoiding the subsequent trap of large individual concentrations o…

I had not considered moving the question to either end of the bookshelf, is it concentrations first and then economic action, or economic action and then large concentrations. Instead of waiting for the boolean T or F on which it is, we could answer both and see:

"One needs money to make a business." (not possible without large concentrations of wealth, business as a result of wealth)

"Businesses occasionally make people super wealthy." (happens as a result of economic action, wealth as a result of business).

Does not the reaction halt if there is not enough wealth to make a business?

Re: Airlines flying empty planes to keep flight slots during coronavirus outbreak

#355

Post by wolco » Mon, Mar 09, 2020, 2:22 AM UTC

SECProto wrote: post #262

wolco wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Very small airline. They have 29 planes that can hold 74 people. American airlines (including regional partnerships has 1700).

Few notes there: * The parent comment didn't caveat "large airline". * Porter is the third-largest airline in Canada. Canada has 10% of the population of the US, so our airlines will be accordingly smaller. * American Airlines is the largest airline in North America [1], serves the entire country + international. Really not a reasonable comparison to a regional domestic airline. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List…

That speaks to the lack of airlines in Canada if the third largest has 74 max people and 29 planes.

Re: Airlines flying empty planes to keep flight slots during coronavirus outbreak

#356

Post by SECProto » Mon, Mar 09, 2020, 2:50 AM UTC

closeparen wrote: post #353

SECProto wrote: post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Porter Airlines appears to have started in an entirely unique regulatory regime, actually I did a quick skim of that wiki article (skimmed a couple sections, ctrl+f'd for "regulat" and "monopoly"), but couldn't find anything about a unique regulatory regime. There has been regulatory issues with the Toronto Island Airport (where porter wants to extend the runway to allow jets to land, but no one* else wants this),…

No one wanted it because it would have meant more flights. That's precisely my point. There is no such thing as new traffic capacity anymore. You can only take it from someone else.

> There is no such thing as new traffic capacity anymore. You can only take it from someone else.

JetBlue started in the late 90s, and according to the wiki [0], "was awarded 75 takeoff/landing slots".

Sunwing Airlines [1] started about 15 years ago, with departures from Toronto Pearson. They targeted the southern vacation niche. I don't know the details of the traffic capacity at Pearson, but they didn't get their landing slots by buying some other airline.

I'm not disagreeing with your comment about the limitations of dividing up a limited resource - many airports in North America are at capacity, and there's no room there for new competition to start up. But you followed it up with an absolute "You literally can't start an airline from scratch", which I took issue with because there are several examples that disprove it.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JetBlue

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunwing_Airlines

Re: Airlines flying empty planes to keep flight slots during coronavirus outbreak

#357

Post by SECProto » Mon, Mar 09, 2020, 2:55 AM UTC

wolco wrote: post #355

SECProto wrote: post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Few notes there: * The parent comment didn't caveat "large airline". * Porter is the third-largest airline in Canada. Canada has 10% of the population of the US, so our airlines will be accordingly smaller. * American Airlines is the largest airline in North America [1], serves the entire country + international. Really not a reasonable comparison to a regional domestic airline. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List…

That speaks to the lack of airlines in Canada if the third largest has 74 max people and 29 planes.

> That speaks to the lack of airlines in Canada if the third largest has 74 max people and 29 planes.

No, it speaks to the population of Canada... Porter still comes in at 18th largest in North America [1]

(It might also be because each of the two large carriers, Air Canada and WestJet, has a number of subsidiaries/wholly owned sub brands which would each be larger than Porter - eg Air Canada Rouge, WestJet Encore)

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_airlines_in_No...

Re: Airlines flying empty planes to keep flight slots during coronavirus outbreak

#358

Post by kalleboo » Mon, Mar 09, 2020, 3:07 AM UTC

kortilla wrote: post #349

kalleboo wrote: post #310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It has nothing to do with size and everything to do with politics. Plenty of small countries have crap internet too. Australia's internet sucks because the conservative government nerfed the NBN plan.

There is no large country that has amazing Internet everywhere. Size does matter in this regard.

"everywhere" is moving the goalposts. The US (and Australia) doesn't even have amazing internet in the cities.

Re: Airlines flying empty planes to keep flight slots during coronavirus outbreak

#359

Post by snickell » Mon, Mar 09, 2020, 7:44 AM UTC

sova wrote: post #338

nicoburns wrote: post #332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep, and the really interesting thing is when you combine libertarian principles with this insight. If large corporations (and large concentrations of individual wealth) are as undesirable as large governments, then the economic model starts to look very different!

Out of curiosity, how would a "libertarian" propose we achieve economic anything without large individual concentrations of wealth?

Remove limited liability as a concept: stop funding the extrinsic risks of large corporate actors. Don't shield stockholders from criminal and unethical acts committed in the organization's name. Watch the incentives change and only very small companies exist. Where necessary, big companies will be run VERY cautiously, as they should be.

EDIT: of course this would "economically devastating", at least to the present way of being, can you imagine the risk of being an officer in a large corporation or a stockholder? but maybe the economic advantages of reduced corruption and mega-corp inefficiency would soften the blow in the medium to long term?

Re: Airlines flying empty planes to keep flight slots during coronavirus outbreak

#360

Post by ikyriakidis » Mon, Mar 09, 2020, 12:55 PM UTC

Blake_Emigro wrote: post #342

eckmLJE wrote: post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's also a common practice in any department that has their budget determined this way, e.g. https://vimeo.com/27060669

Yeah, I had a GF that worked for a government research department. The last quarter of the year the department staff did ridiculous things to ensure every penny of the budget was spent. Frivolous travel, non-relevant conferences, parties, etc. As someone who worked in the private sector and managed project budgets I was blown away haha.

I have experienced this in the private sector as well...