I'm among the ones who think that the most efficient way to lower gender pay gap is to promote longer leaves (parental or not) among men. 'favouring' one gender with 'benefits' for things like caring for family is only reinforcing established roles.
Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums
351–360 of 617 posts
Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums
#352My family is of Norwegian extraction and I'm a dad too. My wife has a completely different relationship with my kids than I do. She also had to go through a great deal more to birth them than I did. Her parental leave was as much about medical recovery as it was bonding time with the kids. And, to put this delicately, but as something that needs to be stated because it's true and important for the discussion: she has…
> And, to put this delicately, but as something that needs to be stated because it's true and important for the discussion: she has a different relationship with our children precisely because she is their mother. The two of us are not interchangeable. There are a million ways this is true. I'm an attentive and a loving father, but the sound of a crying baby is something that I can compartmentalize when I need to. On my wife, though, it is an unbearable sound with physiological effects even. (One that she uses when pumping milk, for example.)
This is a subtle twist you've made to the argument. No one is saying that all relationships a child has are precisely equal. What they're saying is that families should have access to equal leave for both parents when a child comes into their family.
There are many reasons why this might be true. But it also has the nice knock-on effect of not giving sexist employers the opportunity to say "women are more expensive/less productive than men."
> If you are not emotionally autistic,
This little jab is probably why you got downvoted. Please don't make up nonsense about medical conditions or use the autistic spectrum as your synonym for dysfunction. It's not only unfair and uncivil, it's factually incorrect.
> Personally, I find that this "gender equality" push winds up being extraordinarily anti-woman in effect, and whenever I see a man preaching it,
If your argument is, "men shouldn't push an agenda onto women's rights movements" then I'm all for that message. Of course, what you're actually doing is holding a very narrow definition of "woman" and "femininity" and assuming that rights and options granted to women who don't fit that mold come at the cost of your specific image of women. Rights and freedoms are not obviously a zero sum game.
> I assume that he is likely a broken individual in his relationship with the fairer sex, certainly someone that I would care to keep far away from my daughters.
So either you're implying that all people who support broader definitions of women's rights are sexual deviants likely to molest your children, or implying that you are afraid that these freethinking individuals might put ideas into your daughter's head that will make them less friendly to your extremely narrow view of femininity.
Since clearly the former would get you flagged and banned, and we have an imperative to communicate charitably on Hacker News (and of course statistically the most likely source of child abuse is a relative, making your claim wildly implausible), I choose to wish you the best of luck getting over your reactionary fears of letting your daughters choose their own paths in life. I suspect they will thrive even if you try to stifle them.
Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums
#353Earlier quoted context omitted.
The problem in contemporary culture is that we are not even allowed to have this conversation. To state the obvious fact that men and women are different and have different strengths and weaknesses (in general, as a sex) is tantamount to heresy, I guess because gender roles are associated with perceived past injustices. > Personally, I find that this "gender equality" push winds up being extraordinarily anti-woman in…
> The problem in contemporary culture is that we are not even allowed to have this conversation So what type of conversation are you having right now? We have word in swedish for using that type of "arguing", it is "offerkofta". I dont think it is a good word for it in english, but starting a discussion in an open forum saying something and then stating you are not "ALLOWED" to discuss what you are discussing is just…
Well, considering that original post was immediately downvoted into unreadability, it has a bit of point.
Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums
#354Earlier quoted context omitted.
The goal is probably more to reach equal pay/opportunity as opposed to any population growth agenda. When I was in the EU, I knew a woman who had 4 kids, each ~1/1.5 year appart. So she would have a kid, be out 6 month, go back to work for 6 month, have another kid, rinse and repeat 4 times :) . It was a total nightmare for her employer because they couldn't let her go, and they couldn't hire anyone permanently to do…
A smart employer would have hired someone full time to have slack. Especially after the 2nd kid.
what is the cost to the employer of hiring another person just for “slack”?
Looks like it would lead to bloat & waste
Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums
#355Earlier quoted context omitted.
Hmm, a quick search tells me that roughly half of all babies are breastfed after 6 months in the US. Seems acceptable to cater for potential needs of half the population (assuming numbers are the same obviously). I was home with my kid when he turned 1 until he was 1.5 using this system in Sweden. Being a guy, I didn't breastfeed him. Kid still appear functional.
> Kid still appears functional. It's ok, you have more than enough time to traumatize his childhood and early adulthood :-p
Clearly. I tried to explain binary to him this morning. It will go downhill from here.
Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums
#356Earlier quoted context omitted.
"Sacred"? It of course has lots of satisfactions -- why would you have babies otherwise? -- but it's also energy draining and it can drive mothers to exhaustion and a feeling of isolation that can lead to depression. And it's also bad for the fathers. Why wouldn't you want to spend more time with your kid? You made him/her, after all.
I'm not religious, but I suppose it is sacred after a fashion- to our species, whom without it, will quickly cease to exist.
If anything is sacred, it seems like this would be it.
Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums
#357Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Baby was breastfed. How? Mom was pumping milk at work, after her lunch break. We put it in the freezer. I was waking it up and giving it with a bottle to my daughter. This isn't breastfeeding, unfortunately. Your baby was fed breast-milk, but not breastfed. Not a value judgement, but a father feeding a baby from a bottle isn't exactly the same thing developmentally.
This is very condescending. I’m gonna assume the partner nursed the other times she was with the child, like at night. While we can be overly pedantic about the fact that during the day, the baby was bottle fed with breast milk, people have enough stress around breastfeeding as it is; am i doing it right? Does it still count if I pump during the day? Etc etc.
It's not meant to be condescending, and I've updated my comment slightly to try to clarify that. Thanks for pointing out the tone.
I don't think it's overly pedantic in a conversation about fathers spending time as a primary care taker. I think it's actually fairly on topic.
As I understand it (not a doctor), there is a decent bit more going on with breastfeeding than simply the mechanics of delivering milk. Is there a trade-off being made by bottle feeding a baby? Almost definitely. Is it worth it? Sounds like a topic of conversation we could have.
Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums
#358I'm a US male who's 1 month into my 6 months fully-paid paternity leave with our first child. My wife has roughly 4.5 months between banked PTO and FMLA/disability leave. I'm sitting at home right now watching/changing/feeding our baby while my wife is out at doctor's appointments taking care of her health. Having the flexibility to practice a modicum of self-care without neglecting the health and happiness of our ch…
Would you have taken 6 months off without pay to do what you are doing now?
Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums
#359Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Baby was breastfed. How? Mom was pumping milk at work, after her lunch break. We put it in the freezer. I was waking it up and giving it with a bottle to my daughter. This isn't breastfeeding, unfortunately. Your baby was fed breast-milk, but not breastfed. Not a value judgement, but a father feeding a baby from a bottle isn't exactly the same thing developmentally.
Mothers breastfeed when they can and can pump milk for the times when they can't. Baby still gets the nutritional benefits of breast milk and bonding time with each parent. Your argument is the same as saying I didn't eat a nourishing home-cooked meal because I heated up last night's leftovers for lunch today. It's still way better than fast food.
> Your argument is the same as saying I didn't eat a nourishing home-cooked meal because I heated up last night's leftovers for lunch today.
Not exactly. My argument is more akin to saying that leftovers aren't the same thing as having a home cooked meal at the dinner table with your family. There is much more going on at a family table than simply nourishing your body.
> It's still way better than fast food.
Agreed!
Re: Finland to give dads same parental leave as mums
#360When we had our first child (in Sweden), we could divide the time (13 months total) freely between the two of us. Then we got some extra money if each of us took more than 30% of that time. I think they stopped with the money bonus, but it was really great for us. We are now having our second child (now in Norway), and while the father quota is great, they now require the mother to be "in activity" (i.e. working) if…
It make sense to have such restriction if the goal is the break the culture that allow/force women to spend time raising the child and allow/force men to spend time at work in order to support the child.