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Men Are Waiting to Share Some Feelings (2018)

nytimes.com

351–360 of 402 posts

Re: Men Are Waiting to Share Some Feelings (2018)

#351
post #294
post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think some of the articles recommend you find some good guys to talk to in a private setting, rather than posting things on your doorplate at a university, for instance. Talk with some good guy friends first if you think having sex with 14-year-olds is ok, and perhaps they'll give you some feedback so you don't have to hash it out on the public stage.

Having sex with a 14 year old person is completely ok in a lot of countries, including places like Germany & Italy [1], with no pedophilia panic going on. -- [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of_consent_in_Europe

Wikipedia is terrible when it talks about English law.

It gets the UK entry pretty seriously wrong. The age of consent is 16, unless one of the people is in a position of authority over the other (where authority is defined in law and covers things like teachers) when it's 18; prostitution is legal in England but definitely not if the person is under 18.

> Any person who engages in sexual intercourse with a person under the age 16 could be prosecuted. However this therefore means that even sexual intercourse between willing people of a similar age (i.e. A 16 year old and a 15 year old) could result in the older person being liable for prosecution for committing a sexual offence. Because of this, when the Sexual Offences Act 2003 was created, separate sections of the act were put in place to be used on how to appropriately prosecute a person who had sexual intercourse with a person under the age of 16, depending on exactly how young a person under the age of 16 was at time the sexual intercourse took place. This therefore maintained a "two-tier" cut off age system regarding sexual intercourse when it involved a person under the age of 16. Currently this depends on whether a younger person was Under 16 or Under 13 at the time of the sexual intercourse taking place, with the latter being automatically overall illegal, and the former still being illegal, but with defences due to the younger person's older age, more flexibility in sentencing and flexibility overall whether to prosecute or not based on individual case

This is incorrect.

The different ages exist in law because too many abusing men were claiming that they honestly thought that the 12 year old they had abused was a willing 16 year old.

The law removes this dishonest defence by adding this 13 year limit. We want the law to adequately capture the seriousness of the offence of rape of a child.

The reason we don't prosecute 15 year olds who have sex with each other has nothing to do with this two-step age limit: it is because our crown prosecution service has to ask two questions: "Is there a reasonable prospect of a conviction?" and "is it in the public interest to prosecute?". It's not in the public interest to prosecute children for having sex with each other so long as there's no element of coercion or force.

The CPS guidance to prosecuting sexual offences is here: https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/rape-and-sexual-offenc...

> The overriding public concern is to protect children. It was not Parliament's intention to punish children unnecessarily or for the criminal law to intervene where it is wholly inappropriate. During the passage of the bill, Lord Falconer said:

> "Our overriding concern is to protect children, not to punish them unnecessarily. Where sexual relationships between minors are not abusive, prosecuting either or both children is highly unlikely to be in the public interest. Nor would it be in the best interests of the child ..."

The guidance on youth offenders contains more detailed descriptions: https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/youth-offenders

Re: Men Are Waiting to Share Some Feelings (2018)

#352

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's true too, but even then its hard to know sometimes who your close friends are, and what they will think of you for relieving that kind of information to them. Sometimes, the stoic man doesn't have a close friend. You can reply with "well they should get more/better friends", but therein I think lies the catch-22. Reveal your inner self, and maybe you'll get a close friend, or maybe you won't have any friends.

Solitude is preferable to fake relationships.

Wisely spoken

Re: Men Are Waiting to Share Some Feelings (2018)

#353
post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Sometimes being strong means to become vulnerable. This is true so long as you appear vulnerable, not weak.

What is the difference? Give examples of vulnerability that is not also weakness.

Vulnerability is being strong and weak at the same time. It's having the strength to know what the end goal is and not get distracted by emotional hurdles while being weak in submitting to authority and peers.

The easiest example of vulnerability I can think of is leaders from other departments asking my opinion on work processes or product ideas. One could argue that's not weakness but I believe it is, in that leaders who believe themselves above everyone else at the company will make policy and standards that ignore important aspects of product development and delivery.

An example of weakness is confessing personal issues to your manager or a peer, so much so they think less of you but generally don't tell you directly. The "vulnerable" version of that is handling your issues as you see them, asking peers and mentors for comments on your work and how you can improve, and simply not talking about them outside that.

I'll admit part of my judgment is shaded by personal bias from my own weaknesses, but that's how I see it.

Re: Men Are Waiting to Share Some Feelings (2018)

#354

Whats wrong with stoicism. Feelings are fleeting in general didn't lead me to positive places. I think we should put a high value on people that can handle their own problems.

No man is an island. And it is hard to know if you ARE "handling your own problems" when you do not seek other people's input. "Handling your own problems" a lot of the time means "making other people responsible for my emotional well being." I do love stoicism though and I think meditation and stoicism are excellent paths to understanding yourself and managing your internal state.

> "Handling your own problems" a lot of the time means "making other people responsible for my emotional well being."

This is new to me. Making other people responsible for my emotional well-being is being dependent on other people for our own happiness. Stoicism does not suggest that you do this, on the contrary.

Re: Men Are Waiting to Share Some Feelings (2018)

#355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The outside of the bubble isn't space. It sounds like you're on the tail end of existentialism, which is good. It does keep going for a while passed that. Seems like you may be heading towards Absurdism. If so, I recommend Optimistic Nihilism instead. It's much less of a kick in the shins to the envious tortured souls you never notice watching you.

The person you responded to said they think reality isn't harsh, humans are, and you replied with a bunch of harsh things humans do as if that contradicted their comment, which it doesn't. Yet you're contradicting yourself: > In the moment it sucks, but over time I look back and see a beautiful existence. vs. > Imagine looking an abused child in the eyes and saying "is reality that harsh?"

1. Humans aren't some exception to reality.

2. Beauty can exist in harsh realities.

Re: Men Are Waiting to Share Some Feelings (2018)

#356

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The outside of the bubble isn't space. It sounds like you're on the tail end of existentialism, which is good. It does keep going for a while passed that. Seems like you may be heading towards Absurdism. If so, I recommend Optimistic Nihilism instead. It's much less of a kick in the shins to the envious tortured souls you never notice watching you.

I find it interesting you namecheck Optimistic Nihilism because that's largely where I'm at. And I'm sorry but you just aren't presenting much here that's intrinsic, naturally occurring harshness but instead the manifestations of cruel people , which is exactly what I posted about in the first place. I don't think the world is that cruel. I think people, both individually and as a group, are tremendously cruel and ca…

I don't think humans are the only species that would do this give sentience.

Re: Men Are Waiting to Share Some Feelings (2018)

#357

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>He shared his feelings with some women, and look at what happened to him. I don't think he shared any feelings - he expressed his views. Very orthogonal to sharing feelings.

Putting it that way somehow seems to make it even worse.

In this particular case, I'm not sure if it would have made a difference in the end (him resigning). But had he shared his feelings adequately, I suspect a lot more people would be defending him now than they are. Had he shown empathy towards the trafficked woman, while still presenting the very view he did have, it would have been more challenging to attack him.

Is it crappy that you can't express your views without showing empathy and then be judged for it? Definitely. But this is nothing new, and not unique to our age. Wishing for things to be different is wishing for humans to be otherwise.

Is it crappy that in an academic setting one cannot discuss things objectively without invoking feelings and get burnt because of it? Yes. But this wasn't that situation. One side was very clearly not having an academic conversation, but a very emotionally loaded one (protesting). It was Stallman's mistake in treating that situation like any other academic one.

Demonstrating empathy[1] is a key aspect of a relationship. Validating someone's feelings (without agreeing with their narrative) is central to demonstrating empathy. Unfortunately, the common mistake people make is assuming that validating one's feelings means you agree with the story in their heads - it doesn't.

I would often be upset with the way the world was. My having a discussion about X doesn't mean I agree with X or advocate for it. Yet people may view me as a horrible person for it. I'm just trying to have an academic discussion, and exploring ideas, damn it! Isn't that what fiction does? Etc.

But once I learned the dynamics behind all this, I couldn't help and look back at my earlier life and realize I did not behave all that different. Indeed it was easy to find examples where I listened more to one side because of their behavior (showed empathy, discussed instead of debated, etc). It wasn't that I didn't weigh different perspectives objectively - it was that I didn't listen as much to one side as the other. And I've realized I haven't met anyone who is perfect at dispassionately looking at all sides regardless of who is advocating for them. Understanding the factors that go into play will make you better at being able to listen to all sides so you can evaluate them objectively.

Showing empathy with the person whose view you find offensive/wrong is going to make it easier for you to understand their perspective and not let your own emotions get in the way. It will help the other person not be defensive, sarcastic, etc. These are things that bring about strong emotions and eliminating them from the other will help them explain their perspective better.

So yes, it does suck - but it's the same type of suckiness as the existence of bacterial diseases or the fact that I'll starve if I don't eat. Dwelling on it is futile.

[0] Note I said demonstrating empathy, not feeling or having empathy. I don't doubt Stallman has empathy for the trafficked person. Sadly, it's not what you know but what you can show.

Re: Men Are Waiting to Share Some Feelings (2018)

#358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find it interesting you namecheck Optimistic Nihilism because that's largely where I'm at. And I'm sorry but you just aren't presenting much here that's intrinsic, naturally occurring harshness but instead the manifestations of cruel people , which is exactly what I posted about in the first place. I don't think the world is that cruel. I think people, both individually and as a group, are tremendously cruel and ca…

I don't think humans are the only species that would do this give sentience.

Does that make it somehow better?

Re: Men Are Waiting to Share Some Feelings (2018)

#359
post #3

I participated in men's work, not specifically the ManKind Project but a closely related organization. I personally found it helpful doing weekly check-ins and having people holding me accountable to my goals. Unfortunately, the stigma regarding men sharing feelings is prevalent in western society, and it's not only the men causing it. When I told several female friends about the work they did, their response was: "A…

I've found that depends on which generation you're interacting with. Millenials seem far more able to say "I love you" to people that they love outside of their immediate biological family. It's not just the women, either. Men are able to express their feelings to other men in a non-romantic way. Absent is the toxic homophobia that has so colored previous generations. Hell, their recognition of non-binary genders, pr…

Before people had a firm idea of homosexuality, men did show affection for other men as well.

It went like this: it is ok to hold hands with a man (because no one will think you are gay/because no one thinks anyone is gay) -> it is not ok to hold hands (because people will think you are gay) -> it is ok to hold hands (because it would not be a problem if you were gay)

and the last step is still ongoing...

Re: Men Are Waiting to Share Some Feelings (2018)

#360
post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can have emotionless warriors or you can have emotional pacifists. You might even have emotional warriors, but emotionless pacifists is a hard sell. If the State monopolizes violence to the point that we can’t hash things out with our fists, and there’s no room in our society to emotionally vent, then what’s left? It’s not like violence disappeared from society, it just takes different forms when suppressed.

I mean, sometimes I think about the days of yore when people could punch each other and the fight would resolve itself, and maybe that happened in the past and maybe I'm just thinking it happened like that. I think with physical violence, it can escalate. You punch me and "win" the fight, next time I come back with a few friends and the fight may get worse over time. And that's just assuming it's only punches. If kni…

That is the thing, though. Violence had social norms around it. It was not the case that you could escalate forever.

I remember one message from a father to a son, for example, that said "never throw the first punch unless he is X inches taller than you". Of course, this might have been a tad to noble for the time, but still, there were norms.

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