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Why All of Our Games Look Like Crap

jeff-vogel.blogspot.com

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Re: Why All of Our Games Look Like Crap

#351

Post by tkxxx7 »

lazyjones wrote: post #154
magashna wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That era also had fantastic art in arcade games, so don't deny that things like Kim Kaphwan's pants exist https://www.resetera.com/threads/animation-excellence-a-eulo... I'd say today's pixel art generally doesn't hit the heights that it did in SF3 or some of the mid KoF games

> https://www.resetera.com/threads/animation-excellence-a-eulo... > > Current technology isn't even close to being enough to replicate this with real-time physics. The claim on that page, that those detailed cloth animations were superior and somehow lost in the transition to 3D games, is bunk though. Modern games are very detailed, e.g. https://youtu.be/ot_sYoqe_2w?t=2355

> Modern games are very detailed,

Detailing them is one thing, replicating them with physics is another (false equivalence from the author).

Re: Why All of Our Games Look Like Crap

#352

Post by djur »

sha666sum wrote: post #134

As expected, a lot of people in this thread are giving "valuable" advice about his art style. Jeff's self-ironic way of saying the game looks like crap and calling his art style inconsistent seems to have set the tone of the conversation. Having played through the Avernum trilogy last year, I don't think the art style is inconsistent at all, especially considering how old some of the assets are. Please have a closer…

The Avernum remakes look fine. That isn't what the article is talking about, though. It's his new game, which looks substantially worse and consists mostly of new art. He even includes an image of Avernum 3 with this caption: "Our previous game, Avernum 3: Ruined World. Why didn't I just write another game that looks like this? Because I didn't want to. Nyeah!"

Re: Why All of Our Games Look Like Crap

#353

Post by neutronicus »

djur wrote: post #324
PhasmaFelis wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> people will still think your game looks like crap. And those people who don't (I for instance really like SNES games still), will also be satisfied with the art he can create. I like Spiderweb games, but most SNES games looked better than this. Some NES games looked better than this. You can have cheap, low-res art that is coherent and pleasing to the eye, but this isn't it.

He includes a picture of Ultima V for DOS, which looks better than his current games. Hell, he includes a picture of the original art for Exile, which IMO looked better than the later Exile III tileset (which was ported back to releases of Exile I). The problem with the aesthetics of his latest game is not resolution and it isn't that it's in a classic 2D tile-based style. That said, I see where he's coming from. The…

Swapping out a tile set would have been pretty trivial on the old SW games on Windows (on Mac you had to meet with the Resource Fork). It was all just images in folders.

Re: Why All of Our Games Look Like Crap

#354

Post by dwild »

nothis wrote: post #336

I'm super happy that games that look and feel like those from Spiderweb Software exist. I think it's charming. But the fact that he feels compelled to write an article in defense of the art style is telling to me. I think it's not unreasonable to answer the headline question with "because they're stubborn". Their games look crap, not because of a lack of resources but because of a disrespect for visual design (it's n…

> Their best move is to acknowledge that they don't care and do so with pride. Everything else just feels at best insecure and at worst somewhat disrespectful towards devs who care.

You put your finger on exactly what felt wrong for me when I read their post.

They are just trying to find reason to justify their art, while they have none and simply don't care.

I'm not saying it's wrong that they don't care, it's alright, but doing this kind of post is disrespectful for people who cares.

Re: Why All of Our Games Look Like Crap

#355

Post by ixtli »

I would rather modern games look a bit more "like crap" and have even a 10th of the gameplay depth and quality of Spiderweb games than his games getting any better. I guess I'm also one of those people who grew up on the SNES and on Avernum and etc., but i know many younger people who feel the same as i do!

Re: Why All of Our Games Look Like Crap

#356

Post by nothis »

tempsolution wrote: post #220

There is a big gap between "crap" and AAA for sure. But think about this (in today's time): * Half Life 2 looks like crap * Fallout 3 looks like crap * Actually any game from more than a few years back, looks like crap But any of those are hopelessly out of reach for any Indie developer even with today's tools. There is real AAA from earlier days, that still looks good these days, like: * Battlefield 3 * Crysis 2 * C…

I get a little annoyed at how graphics tech is often equated with art direction. Anno 1602 has matching colors, good contrast, perfectly proportioned tile art, consistent balance of detail and good lighting. Its mountains look majestic, its forests lush, its buildings picturesque. All things you could get if you spent money on letting someone actually do some art direction on the game rather than just commissioning concept art and sticking it on top of flat background textures.

Re: Why All of Our Games Look Like Crap

#357

Post by brixon »

proc0 wrote: post #342

A good artist will make anything look good, pixel art, card games, all the way to photo-real 3d (of course depending on the artist). What happens is that in general the first thing to be cut due to budget is probably the art since without function you have no game. Imho, indie games would do better if they "sliced" their game releases differently, such that art was never takes a back-seat as it is probably tempting t…

I think this hold more true to the types of games I play, but a little less so to the types of games this developer makes. It sounds like he is targeting the D&D and retro gaming crowd.

This also holds more true to the generation being targeted. People that grew up on XBox/PlayStation will have a hard time with lesser graphics. People that grew up with Atari will be more open to lesser graphics.

Re: Why All of Our Games Look Like Crap

#358

Post by Majromax »

Goronmon wrote: post #331
Majromax wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If the context of the discussion was about developers instead of artists, how would HackerNews feel about someone lamenting the fact that they can't get any "affordable" developers to work on their projects? I'm not sure the reaction would be all that negative, to be honest. The problem to me isn't when someone says "we want cheap work and we understand it will not be particularly high-quality," but when they say "…

The problem to me isn't when someone says "we want cheap work and we understand it will not be particularly high-quality," but when they say "we want top-quality work but we're not willing to pay for it." And to me, I read it as he expects more towards the latter than the former. "Talented, reliable" implies an expectation of a specific level of quality beyond "cheap work, not particularly high-quality".

I read "reliable" as "delivers, preferably on time." That's reasonable to ask for from any freelancer, but since Vogel specifically doesn't pay enough to keep artists on retainer I can understand how he doesn't always get it.

I don't have such a high reading of "talented," since others in this thread generally complain that Vogel has a poor eye for quality, and Vogel in this blog post notes he's looking for a basic 'good enough'.

I'm inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt, in particular since he understands that not having a reliable cadre of artists is his problem and not that of primadonna artists. The stereotypical out-of-touch manager who asks for "top-quality work on a shoestring budget" also externalizes the blame for failure.

That is: I think many people are responding to this blog post as if it had read "our games look like crap, but that's because we can't find good artists," rather than "... and that's fine by me, we're getting what we want to pay for."

Re: Why All of Our Games Look Like Crap

#359

Post by close04 »

nothis wrote: post #336

I'm super happy that games that look and feel like those from Spiderweb Software exist. I think it's charming. But the fact that he feels compelled to write an article in defense of the art style is telling to me. I think it's not unreasonable to answer the headline question with "because they're stubborn". Their games look crap, not because of a lack of resources but because of a disrespect for visual design (it's n…

The problem isn't going into defense, it's having an acidic attitude towards it:

> What fascinates me here is that the guy seems to think he is telling me news. Like, I'm smart enough to keep a software company running for 25 years, but I am unable to notice qualities in my games that are instantly obvious to Joe Q. Rando.

Imagine that being said in any other context to realize how uncalled for such an attitude is and how much it undermines any other point the author wants to make.

Microsoft or Apple have indubitably created some of the most successful and valuable businesses that are still at it decades later. Now imagine them giving the response above when faced with criticism. If it would sound awful it's because it is. People who can't take even constructive criticism will have a hard time existing on the internet. And it will show.

Re: Why All of Our Games Look Like Crap

#360

Post by wolco »

nothis wrote: post #336

I'm super happy that games that look and feel like those from Spiderweb Software exist. I think it's charming. But the fact that he feels compelled to write an article in defense of the art style is telling to me. I think it's not unreasonable to answer the headline question with "because they're stubborn". Their games look crap, not because of a lack of resources but because of a disrespect for visual design (it's n…

I won't download a mobile game with too much art. Wastes spaces and usually causes the app to run slowly.

I stopped downloading desktop games when they hit 3 gigs.

I'm sure I'm not the only one.

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