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Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

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Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#351

Post by exabrial »

tootie wrote: post #215
vfc1 wrote: post #23

The Java ecosystem has been slowly dying for years, it's already the new Cobol at this stage. I have the impression that a lot of the mindshare has switched to the Node and Javascript ecosystem, especially the frontend devs, via the Typescript / Angular path, which is a natural path to Java developers due to the comfort given by familiar concepts like static types, classes, etc. When I used to do Java, I always found…

JavaScript is practically stone age compared to Java. Debugging is a nightmare. Documentation is a nightmare. Scaling is a nightmare. NPM is a thousand monkeys at a thousand typewriters. Java suffers from having some 20-year old codebases because it's been so popular for so long but I can open up a 2004 WebLogic project in Eclipse or InteeliJ and trace everything it's doing. And modern Java has added all the nice fea…

CDI may be the golden egg though. I enjoy using it as an alternative to Spring, it's just unfortunate it comes with the deadweight of legacy ee.

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#352

Post by ngcc_hk »

UglyToad wrote: post #206
marak830 wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

hand up uh not as experienced as most people on HN, what's the hate for c#? I went from vb6 to VB.net then c# and while I fully admit I'm a casual coder, i haven't had an issue (with what I do, which is voice to string primarily) so far. Is there something better for this I perhaps should look into?

I don't think there's hate for it as such since HN doesn't really get into holy wars it just ignored for similar reasons to Java. There's a bias towards the novel or newer trends especially coming out of startup culture which means limited interest in the established workhorse languages, C#, Java and to a lesser extent C++ when compared to Rust, Go, etc. I only write C# despite having tried a few other languages (F#,…

Hate is not but the verbosity of java meant that you cannot afford time to type or read those statements. And the complexity. When you start up and/or hack, you are 1 p or small group. Java enterprise is not really an option. I need to move to phase 3 before I ask the team to switch to spring and JE side. Painful. But can we do it first with those. No way. And for personal project :-)

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#353

Post by yumraj »

dtech wrote: post #32
mjw1007 wrote: post #10

« Oracle already started a blocking politics at the Eclipse Foundation’s board, where Oracle has a seat, and where unanimous decisions are needed. Oracle now has the power, and apparently will use that power, to block the foundation’s future. It demonstrated that power already in a board meeting, where they had the sole vote against an otherwise unaimous move. » I hope other organisations with a director from Oracle…

For me it's more a lesson about how unanimous votes, or unanimous - N can become problematic. In the EU the same is happening. Poland and Hungary have found a loophole allowing them to ignore EU rules and sanctions while still profiting from subsidies and market access. All sanctions against a member state require unanimous-1 (all states except the sanctioned member) votes and Poland is vetoing all sanctions against…

UN security council is another classic example, where any permanent member can use the veto to block any resolution they want, regardless of how the other permanent or elected members vote.

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#354

Post by DaiPlusPlus »

yumraj wrote: post #353
dtech wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For me it's more a lesson about how unanimous votes, or unanimous - N can become problematic. In the EU the same is happening. Poland and Hungary have found a loophole allowing them to ignore EU rules and sanctions while still profiting from subsidies and market access. All sanctions against a member state require unanimous-1 (all states except the sanctioned member) votes and Poland is vetoing all sanctions against…

UN security council is another classic example, where any permanent member can use the veto to block any resolution they want, regardless of how the other permanent or elected members vote.

That’s by design. The council is kept small and all permanent members are nuclear powers. The ability for Russia and the US to veto each other’s foreign policy spats and agreeing-to-disagree is the reason we’re still alive today.

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#355

Post by DaiPlusPlus »

marcus_holmes wrote: post #349
StevePerkins wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> webassembly [is] eating JVM's cake It's hard for me to take all the "Java is dying" threads seriously when they don't even seem to understand where Java plays. Webassembly ? Really? That's a client-side tech, and 99.999% of Java devs ceded the browser battleground pre-9/11. Java's bread and butter is EAI, ETL, and server-side business application development. Particularly with pieces requiring heavily distributed d…

I've heard that attitude before. C++ developers working in finance around 2000. They were damn sure that no-one was going to switch to any other language because reasons. I'm sure there's still a bunch of C++ devs working in finance, and making decent money, but I think the industry has moved on now. The industry always moves on

HFT gigs I’ve looked at were all C++, some even Rust now - because they don’t want the risk of a long GC pause messing up a trade (which means Java, .NET, and Go are right-out).

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#356

Post by yumraj »

DaiPlusPlus wrote: post #354
yumraj wrote: post #353

Earlier quoted context omitted.

UN security council is another classic example, where any permanent member can use the veto to block any resolution they want, regardless of how the other permanent or elected members vote.

That’s by design. The council is kept small and all permanent members are nuclear powers. The ability for Russia and the US to veto each other’s foreign policy spats and agreeing-to-disagree is the reason we’re still alive today.

There are more nuclear powers now, so shouldn't the security council permanent membership be expanded? We're not in 1945 anymore.

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#357

Post by coldtea »

scarface74 wrote: post #301
coldtea wrote: post #297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, I agree, and I don't work at Oracle. So? Any other conspiracy theories?

Care to post benchmarks?

Benchmarks of what?

What exactly in BoyRobot777's comment (which I said I agree to) calls for benchmarks to be proved?

Nowhere are benchmark results taken for granted as faster or anything. Grandparent says: "Also, I am very interested to see new benchmark results once AOT SubstrateVM will be more widely adopted in JVM community."

I simply agree with the statement made: "All in all, with upcoming value types, SubstrateVM adoption, fibers and nice languages improvements like records, future is brighter than ever for Java." -- so, I responded to your comment which seemed to be skeptic of that (and accusing the parent of working for Oracle).

If you were referring to someone else and some other comment, why post your comment as a response directly under BoyRobot777?

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#358

Post by coldtea »

scarface74 wrote: post #300
coldtea wrote: post #295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In fact, Java is so far behind C# with true Generics It's not "true Generics" it's a different generics tradeoff (tradeoff not just for backwards compatibility sake). And LINQ is not that important in the grand scheme of things. Are Haskell, CL, or Smalltak also "far behind" C# for not having LINQ? It's just another feature. You can most of the same things with a fluent interface, streams, and functional compositio…

LINQ itself is a big deal because of what it enables. A simple LINQ expression can be passed around an translated on the fly by various providers. The same expressions can be translated to Sql, Mongo, regular IL, etc. And no LINQ isn’t just syntax. Last time I checked neither SmallTalk or Haskell are taking the world by storm... Haven’t Java proponents been claiming Java was going to be fast for over two decades?

>A simple LINQ expression can be passed around an translated on the fly by various providers. The same expressions can be translated to Sql, Mongo, regular IL, etc.

The same can happen with a simple abstract expression in native syntax (in fact tons of tools in all languages that do that). LINQ just gives you a standardized built-in DSL for that -- but nothing you can't build yourself with the language's main syntax. Heck, LISPs have been able to do the same shit for half a century.

>Last time I checked neither SmallTalk or Haskell are taking the world by storm...

Yes, they only made a dent with the smarter developers.

Still, C# isn't taking the Linux world by storm either, and it's nearly irrelevant on mobile too, so there's that.

>Haven’t Java proponents been claiming Java was going to be fast for over two decades?

Java has been fast for over 15 years now, so not sure what you're getting at here. Faster than C# as well, so there's that too.

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#359

Post by DaiPlusPlus »

hodgesrm wrote: post #210
vfc1 wrote: post #23

The Java ecosystem has been slowly dying for years, it's already the new Cobol at this stage. I have the impression that a lot of the mindshare has switched to the Node and Javascript ecosystem, especially the frontend devs, via the Typescript / Angular path, which is a natural path to Java developers due to the comfort given by familiar concepts like static types, classes, etc. When I used to do Java, I always found…

Time for another sortie by the COBOL evangelism task force. Java has been the new COBOL since its inception in the 1990s. I programmed quite a bit in COBOL early in my career. It's an extremely efficient language for scanning records especially in an era when a large proportion of data was stored offline on mag tape. Most common business problems of the era could be expressed and solved effectively in COBOL, which is…

How does one secure a COBOL gig today, and is the supply:demand ratio such to guarantee excellent compensation and working conditions?

Re: Negotiations Failed: How Oracle Killed Java EE

#360

Post by coldtea »

scarface74 wrote: post #302
coldtea wrote: post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Eclipse was slow and had the usual non native Java smell that all cross platform GUIs have Actually Eclipse used a native GUI toolkit (Standard Widget Toolkit), backed by native widgets plus a few custom draw ones (like 100% native apps also resort to for custom stuff). So, if it smelled "non Native", it wasn't because of Java.

And I guess neither were the performance penalties of both Java and the Interop layer compared to native C++ code?

There were no "performance penalties" to speak of related to the GUI layer. IDE UI is not doing anything crazy to be performance bound. And I've (like millions of others) have used it in 2003-era PCs, with spinning platter HDs.

What indeed was, were some penalties of the GC kicking in (unrelated to UI widgets). Still nothing a .NET app wouldn't have (and I've used SharpDevelop as well back in the day).

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