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Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez Is Absolutely Right About Racist Algorithms

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Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez Is Absolutely Right About Racist Algorithms

#351

Post by gdy »

dang wrote: post #342
dvtrn wrote: post #331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems like a shallow and obvious one to me That's really unfortunate. I could go on quite a bit about how, as a man of color, it gets fatiguing having certain conversations or trying to express certain points of view in these types of socio-political debates lately (to my dismay sometimes right here on HN-a forum that holds itself to a certain standard of debate but seems quite eager to throw it out, convenience p…

I don't think you're taking into account how frequently these things get repeated. Anything so frequently repeated becomes tiresome.

Many more things are repeated just as frequently, but somehow they don't result in banned accounts.

Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez Is Absolutely Right About Racist Algorithms

#352

Post by gdy »

dang wrote: post #322
gdy wrote: post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He has a point, though.

It seems like a shallow and obvious one to me, but if I'm mistaken and there's more there there, it deserves to be expressed substantively and respectfully. Otherwise the only effect is to rile up agreers with positive charge and disagreers with negative charge—just what we don't need.

I consider that argument to be a case of "Reductio ad absurdum"[0] and don't see anything disrespectful in it.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_absurdum

Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez Is Absolutely Right About Racist Algorithms

#353

Post by 113 »

toasterlovin wrote: post #240
hannasanarion wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, my argument is that "it's just numbers! they don't have a soul!" is not a valid defense from accusations of racism, because the statistical systems can be racist in their design, and there is no "racist meter" you can apply to check. The only way to know if a system is fair or not is to check whether the results you're getting are the ones you want.

FWIW, your usage of the the term 'racism' is not at all what most people mean when they use the term. The vast, overwhelming majority of people do not think in terms of systems. They think in terms of agency.

"vast, overwhelming majority of people"

You gonna back that up?

Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez Is Absolutely Right About Racist Algorithms

#354

Post by gdy »

ForrestN wrote: post #300
gdy wrote: post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why on Earth supporting poor people regardless of their race would be racist by anyone's criteria? It would seem you are the racist here thinking a person needs support because he is black, not because he is poor.

Think of it like this. If you wanted to support all individual poor people in America equally, you'll end up helping a disproportionate number of black people, because black people are disproportionately poor. So it's actually reasonable to say "black people need a disproportionate amount of help" if you're trying to help poverty in an unbiased way.

That is imprecise to the point of being unreasonable.

In your example help isn't given to all black people, only to the poor ones.

If you consider help given to poor black people vs. help given to poor white people, it becomes proportional.

Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez Is Absolutely Right About Racist Algorithms

#355

Post by jstanley »

billy_beef wrote: post #332
fiter wrote: post #327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My apologies for not linking to the other thread, but as far as I can tell, there are no proxies for race used to calculate FICO scores.

Without the data, I have a hard time believing this. Especially since I had to explain the concept. Even if that were the case, you're still left with a small set of conclusions about race and its correlation to FICO score. 1) Non-white people are worse at maintaining credit scores because of something inherent to the condition of non-whiteness. This conclusion quickly points in the direction of racist psuedo-science…

Are you saying that even if certain groups of people are less likely to be able to repay debt (for reasons outside their control), it is still racist if their FICO scores are lower?

I think you want FICO scores to mean something that they don't mean.

Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez Is Absolutely Right About Racist Algorithms

#356

Post by maceurt »

tomp wrote: post #163
maceurt wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I get from people on the left is that an unequal outcome is indicative of racism, however subtle that racism is. The only other explanations for an unequal outcome are biological differences between races (do not want to get into that) and races haves advantages over others from past history.

Other possible explanations include at least culture and background (parental wealth, connections and education), possibly others.

That is what I meant by past history.

Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez Is Absolutely Right About Racist Algorithms

#357

Post by toasterlovin »

113 wrote: post #353
toasterlovin wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FWIW, your usage of the the term 'racism' is not at all what most people mean when they use the term. The vast, overwhelming majority of people do not think in terms of systems. They think in terms of agency.

"vast, overwhelming majority of people" You gonna back that up?

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/racism

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/racist

No mention of what the person I was responding to was talking about.

Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez Is Absolutely Right About Racist Algorithms

#358

Post by csa »

throwawaywhynot wrote: post #341
csa wrote: post #320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. Asians are over-represented by ~4x versus their percent of the population (5.6 in US and 22.9 at Harvard)... not that this is a useful metric. Is this a stat that SJWs are happy about? I genuinely wonder. 2. Affirmative action is a thing. If you stop the so-called “Asian quota” (e.g., by going race blind), then any slots gained will most likely result in losses for slots from other ethnic minorities. Some people b…

Since it's a university I'd assume lots of students applied from their home countries and migrated later. That makes the 4x argument pointless

While there are foreign nationals who come in as undergrads, it doesn’t sway the percentage that much (x domestic and 3x international). Most undergrad Asians I’ve met at elite schools are US residents/citizens who have been in the country for a while (i.e., not just someone who came for high school).

That can be quite different for grad schools, though.

Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez Is Absolutely Right About Racist Algorithms

#359

Post by yellowapple »

rtkwe wrote: post #246
50656E6973 wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Equality of outcome seems like a mechanistic concept of the industrial age of standardized mass production. Equality of opportunity seems much more organic/humanistic because it allows for the natural variation in people's values and personality

The problem is equality of opportunity is it's invariably applied in a way that ignores some very racist and uneven starting conditions and the effects of the past. Consider as a small example how schools are funded in the US, which is largely by local property taxes, so poorer places have poorer schools. These areas are heavily skewed towards minority populations because of some extremely racist issues in our past l…

"The problem is equality of opportunity is it's invariably applied in a way that ignores some very racist and uneven starting conditions and the effects of the past."

Then that's where the energy ought to go. Adjusting the end result (e.g. by adjusting the college admission criteria based on race/ethnicity) doesn't really fix the root cause; it's a band-aid on America's broken leg.

If the starting conditions are unequal, then that is by definition not equal opportunity, so correcting those conditions should be Priority 1.

Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez Is Absolutely Right About Racist Algorithms

#360

Post by jpmcglone »

matt4077 wrote: post #302
jpmcglone wrote: post #294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You use the word racist to mean two different things. The basketball team being all black isn't racism and it isn't due to racism. If I saw a basketball team (in the NBA) of all white people, I would suspect racism, but it's important to point out that the outcome (an all white NBA team) is NOT racist in itself. Even if it is likely due to racism. So, I think we should stop calling the outcomes 'racist' and say what…

I fail to see a distinction b/w “racist” and “due to racism”. In any case, I feel large parts of society, including major media outlets, already tend towards caution, c. f. the reluctance in calling the President’s “both sides” comment “racist”, instead opting for “racially charged” or “insensitive” or similar. > There is one party in particular that I think relies on people to believe that their problems are outside…

I obfuscated it because I knew you would pick the right party without me elaborating.

I don't think the left-wing advocacy is altruistic. If it was altruistic, it would promote altruism. It, instead, promotes redistribution of wealth.

Do you think redistribution of wealth is altruistic? How so?

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