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Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez Is Absolutely Right About Racist Algorithms

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Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez Is Absolutely Right About Racist Algorithms

#291

Post by rtkwe »

tomp wrote: post #250
rtkwe wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is equality of opportunity is it's invariably applied in a way that ignores some very racist and uneven starting conditions and the effects of the past. Consider as a small example how schools are funded in the US, which is largely by local property taxes, so poorer places have poorer schools. These areas are heavily skewed towards minority populations because of some extremely racist issues in our past l…

By changing the way schools are funded, and helping poor students. No racial discrimination necessary.

My point was principally about the issues with 'equality of opportunity' in the US because of the massive inequality already present.

On your note though yes with unlimited money we could do that, given limited budget though targeting the assistance to those most affected makes sense. Also a program like that also does little to nothing for people who aren't very young when it's started. Also ultimately that's an equality of outcome style solution because it's giving additional resources to some.

(this is more about things like the Harvard affirmative action program) I think there's also a meaningful distinction to draw between inclusive discrimination like affirmative action and exclusive discrimination of groups. I know it's an extremely tough line to define at a government level but they feel like very distinct categories of activities.

Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez Is Absolutely Right About Racist Algorithms

#292

Post by gdy »

fzeroracer wrote: post #268
tomp wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In theory I agree but in practice that often leads to racism. For example, some people support discrimination for blacks (& against whites) at e.g. college admissions, purportedly to offset their (statistically) worse family background (in terms of education and wealth). Clearly, that's a terrible and racist solution, with the better and obviously correct solution being... to support people from worse family backgrou…

The flaw with this argument is that if you recognize that for example, black people are generally worse off in family background than white people, then you end up back at the point where you on average offer more aid for black families than white ones which by your argument would be racist. You're not solving the problem at all by attempting to sweep racism under the rug; quite the opposite in fact because it fails…

Why on Earth supporting poor people regardless of their race would be racist by anyone's criteria?

It would seem you are the racist here thinking a person needs support because he is black, not because he is poor.

Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez Is Absolutely Right About Racist Algorithms

#293

Post by axiom92 »

kauffj wrote: post #11

There is no design of AI that can be simultaneously utilitarian, procedurally fair, and representatively fair. I'm going to repeat this again, since many people struggle with this. It is _literally impossible_ to achieve the best utilitarian outcome, the most procedurally fair outcome, and a representatively fair outcome. Anyone designing algorithms will have to make tradeoffs along this frontier. For a far better ar…

Reminds me of: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_paradox

Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez Is Absolutely Right About Racist Algorithms

#294

Post by jpmcglone »

matt4077 wrote: post #160
jpmcglone wrote: post #59

It’s more clear to me than ever now that the left and the right do not use the word “racist” the same way. The left thinks of racism in terms of outcome and the right thinks of racism in terms of intent. We could benefit from better language around these concepts, and honest dialogue about them too.

That’s not true. It’s just that racist intend is almost always impossible to prove. Outcome therefore becomes a needed proxy, but only after excluding other factors, by, for example, normalizing for age and income. Two landmark studies in this regard come to mind are (a) how the success rate at an orchestra doubled among women after auditions were changed to a “blind” format not allowing the decision-makers to see th…

You use the word racist to mean two different things.

The basketball team being all black isn't racism and it isn't due to racism.

If I saw a basketball team (in the NBA) of all white people, I would suspect racism, but it's important to point out that the outcome (an all white NBA team) is NOT racist in itself. Even if it is likely due to racism.

So, I think we should stop calling the outcomes 'racist' and say what we mean: "I suspect this outcome is due to racism"

I think that will make the whole conversation a lot easier to have.

I don't think its advantageous to certain political entities, however, if we have this conversation. There is one party in particular that I think relies on people to believe that their problems are outside of their control, so that maybe they'll outsource the problem solving to the government.

Maybe I have it pinned all wrong, but I will never know if we can't talk about racism and outcomes of what may or may not be racism as two separate things.

Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez Is Absolutely Right About Racist Algorithms

#295

Post by fzeroracer »

gdy wrote: post #292
fzeroracer wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The flaw with this argument is that if you recognize that for example, black people are generally worse off in family background than white people, then you end up back at the point where you on average offer more aid for black families than white ones which by your argument would be racist. You're not solving the problem at all by attempting to sweep racism under the rug; quite the opposite in fact because it fails…

Why on Earth supporting poor people regardless of their race would be racist by anyone's criteria? It would seem you are the racist here thinking a person needs support because he is black, not because he is poor.

You need to reread my argument if that's what you came out of it with.

Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez Is Absolutely Right About Racist Algorithms

#296

Post by gdy »

mehrdadn wrote: post #219
tomp wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

More to the point, “procedural fairness” or “equality of opportunity” (if I understand it correctly) is directly opposed to “representative fairness” or “equality of outcome”. In many situations, prioritising one will compromise the other. As an example, Harvard admission of Asian students. Perspectives differ on which one is more important. Personally, I’m absolutely for the former, but it increasingly seems I’m a p…

Do you believe getting rid of accessible parking spots makes things more fair...?

Are you saying that black people are disabled in a way just because they are black?

Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez Is Absolutely Right About Racist Algorithms

#297

Post by billy_beef »

thegayngler wrote: post #286
billy_beef wrote: post #276

It's very telling that claims that Facebook's newsfeed algorithm under-samples conservative publications do not receive nearly as much criticism as claims that algorithms propagate racialized bias receive.

We don't know IF Facebook is under sampling conservative publications. It depends on the goal of the algorithm. If the goal is accuracy, as a group recent conservative publications have a sorted history when it comes to truth and accuracy. Conservative news outlets also have a weird bias against science and like to push conspiracy theories with no basis behind them. Naturally if your algorithm is focused on how accur…

My point is not about Facebook's algorithm at all. My point is about the reactions to claims about it vs this claim about algorithms

Many commenters here seem to be frustrated by the suggestion that an algorithm could be tuned to create a bias or reproduce the bias of the data powering it. My point is that similar arguments have not largely been levied against the claim that Facebook's algorithm has bias.

Why are these arguments not made in the case of the Facebook algorithm but are being made here? My conclusion is that people are extremely uneasy with the premise that there is a racial bias in modern American society.

Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez Is Absolutely Right About Racist Algorithms

#298

Post by ForrestN »

tomp wrote: post #146
kauffj wrote: post #11

There is no design of AI that can be simultaneously utilitarian, procedurally fair, and representatively fair. I'm going to repeat this again, since many people struggle with this. It is _literally impossible_ to achieve the best utilitarian outcome, the most procedurally fair outcome, and a representatively fair outcome. Anyone designing algorithms will have to make tradeoffs along this frontier. For a far better ar…

More to the point, “procedural fairness” or “equality of opportunity” (if I understand it correctly) is directly opposed to “representative fairness” or “equality of outcome”. In many situations, prioritising one will compromise the other. As an example, Harvard admission of Asian students. Perspectives differ on which one is more important. Personally, I’m absolutely for the former, but it increasingly seems I’m a p…

I think the most useful way to think about this is that unequal outcomes almost always lead us to unequal opportunity upstream.

If, for example, you made admission to elite colleges(which is a whole other can of worms) ignore ethnic backgrounds, you'd get a result where far fewer applicants of certain ethnicities would be accepted. In an arbitrary sense, this could represent "equal opportunity" if you believed that these people materialized from the ether the day they submit their application. But if you take into account their lives leading up to submitting their application, "equal opportunity" requires counteracting powerful structural factors that make it harder for people of some backgrounds to get into college.

The reason Harvard admission of Asian students is cited to such a tiresome degree is that it's a rare case where there isn't a clear upstream justification. That's why there's a big lawsuit and Harvard is getting tons of awful press about it. But it also lines up with the fundamental problem we're trying to fix with affirmative action. Harvard and its admissions systems were invented by white people, and they have proven to relentlessly favor white people, who then have easier lives and more money they can use to pay SAT tutors to help the next generation of white kids get into Harvard. It's not surprising that Harvard would warp the affirmative action system away from its original purpose, to correct for historical oppression, in order to... help white people get into Harvard. The fact that Harvard is discriminating against Asians is not a reason to implement a fake-fair system that has the end result of discriminating against all other non-white people.

It's theoretically possible that there are some other cases somewhere that show large inequality of outcome but have no unfairness upstream. But I'd rather have the task of discovering and fixing those rare cases than the present system, in which being born with a certain background gives you radical advantages or disadvantages on the basis of, basically, ancestral violence.

Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez Is Absolutely Right About Racist Algorithms

#299

Post by mehrdadn »

gdy wrote: post #296
mehrdadn wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you believe getting rid of accessible parking spots makes things more fair...?

Are you saying that black people are disabled in a way just because they are black?

...what? No. I'm asking about the equality of opportunity vs. outcome. Parent said he's for equality of opportunity rather than which accessible parking is most definitely not. I'm suggesting we need more nuance than just categorizing one as desirable and one as undesirable.

Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez Is Absolutely Right About Racist Algorithms

#300

Post by ForrestN »

gdy wrote: post #292
fzeroracer wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The flaw with this argument is that if you recognize that for example, black people are generally worse off in family background than white people, then you end up back at the point where you on average offer more aid for black families than white ones which by your argument would be racist. You're not solving the problem at all by attempting to sweep racism under the rug; quite the opposite in fact because it fails…

Why on Earth supporting poor people regardless of their race would be racist by anyone's criteria? It would seem you are the racist here thinking a person needs support because he is black, not because he is poor.

Think of it like this. If you wanted to support all individual poor people in America equally, you'll end up helping a disproportionate number of black people, because black people are disproportionately poor. So it's actually reasonable to say "black people need a disproportionate amount of help" if you're trying to help poverty in an unbiased way.
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