Earlier quoted context omitted.
Human Remains is one term used in the UK
"Personnel" is the older, more appropriate name.
Sorry I was guilty of using slang here its meant in a negative way.
The highest paid workers in Silicon Valley are product managers (2016)
351–360 of 365 posts
Re: The highest paid workers in Silicon Valley are product managers (2016)
#352Earlier quoted context omitted.
It’s just terminology from acting. Wouldn’t read too much into it. Getting annoyed by that is like being upset you have a team in your org called HR. “Human Resources? Am I just a unit of raw material to be put through the factory?!”
> Am I just a unit of raw material to be put through the factory?!” Yes. This one is accurate.
Interestingly HR people don’t refer to themselves as “resources”, they call themselves “professionals” or “business partners”. But at least they’re honest about how they view real workers.
Re: The highest paid workers in Silicon Valley are product managers (2016)
#353Earlier quoted context omitted.
Except that Tech isn't a profession. Professions have bodies that establish and enforce professional standards and appropriate evaluations and credentials. Programmers that call themselves "engineers" are fooling themselves. Unless they are doing the sort of programming that the NASA shuttle team used, none of us are "engineers".
In the UK The BCS and IEEE would beg to differ. And a profession is not just the piece of paper its about social standing and relative pay rates. And anyone with a degree who works in there field is a "engineer" even though the number that go for full Chartered status is a small minority - and that is more about who you know not what you know.
The BCS
The BCS is a complete joke, completely irrelevant to anyone working in the field, I have no idea how it still exists or what it actually does for practitioners or for the industry.
Re: The highest paid workers in Silicon Valley are product managers (2016)
#354I can only think of product managers deserving such high salaries for customer facing products. They can act as translators between end users and engineers. Having worked on purely backend ML code, I find PMs to be mostly clueless about how the product is built. Even after spending years on a product they may not understand simple things like names of different components and what they do. Even during quarterly planning meetings, which is the PMs time to shine, half of the ideas on the table can be dismissed for being impractical and the other half require some data collection to dismiss. At least for backend work I think a Tech Lead can do all the tasks of a PM.
Re: The highest paid workers in Silicon Valley are product managers (2016)
#355Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think it's about visibility of failure. When a carpenter or office worker make a mistake, it often doesn't take an expert to figure it out (and if it does, it's always a "clerical" error, not an honest mistake in a complex environment). Thus, whenever people look at these jobs, they're not seeing skilled laborers but someone whose time is simply less valuable than theirs. If only they had the time, they could have…
In NYC it takes 8 years verifiable work experience (by W-2 forms) Before you are allowed to take a Plumbing test, for your license. I guarantee that you would Not be able to trouble shoot a problem that a licensed plumber couldn't figure out. And yes, in a past life I was a master licensed plumber.
Oh, no doubt. I didn't mean to suggest otherwise, just to present a hypothesis on why I think people perceive some jobs as requiring talent.
Re: The highest paid workers in Silicon Valley are product managers (2016)
#356Earlier quoted context omitted.
You are only as safe as your boss permits you. Tomorrow he may leave/get fired/die; the person replacing him may not be as tolerant of your actions.
Be that as may be, I have a right to a life/work balance. My own father worked himself into an early grave at 60. I lived with his being chained to his job. I swore I would never do it.
I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm warning you of some of the possible weaknesses in your argument that you're in a protected, safe place. And I do this only because I've made the same assumptions a couple of times and paid the price for not figuring it out sooner.
Re: The highest paid workers in Silicon Valley are product managers (2016)
#357Earlier quoted context omitted.
Because Tech is a "profession" and if you think we are you obviously haven't seen how other professions Architects for example and Journalists have a very high opinion of them selves.
Except that Tech isn't a profession. Professions have bodies that establish and enforce professional standards and appropriate evaluations and credentials. Programmers that call themselves "engineers" are fooling themselves. Unless they are doing the sort of programming that the NASA shuttle team used, none of us are "engineers".
Here in Uruguay if you wish to call yourself an "engineer" you need to have an accredited engineering degree.
There is a career called C.S. Engineer and it has an huge amount of math and physics (equivalent to an undergrad + master's in the U.S.). Most of us take the career that's equivalent to an undergraduate degree though, the extra math (and grueling attrition) is mostly useless.
But graduates are very sought after because they've proven themselves able to go through a tough grind (even though they don't have a shred of practical experience after graduating)
Re: The highest paid workers in Silicon Valley are product managers (2016)
#358Re: The highest paid workers in Silicon Valley are product managers (2016)
#359Earlier quoted context omitted.
talking to customers -> Listening to what the customer's pain points are, what the customer needs, what to address going to conferences -> Because face-to-face contact is far faster and richer than sending emails researching competitors -> What aren't we doing that others are doing better / what are we doing that's winning / what to change? researching products -> well, yes, constantly learning Is it any surprise the…
I do not see any activity here which would indicate a higher pay from any other ordinary worker.
That's very astute. You are right, there's nothing in those activities that command a higher pay. For product managers, it's the work that comes after doing all the above which commands the higher pay: Synthesizing all the information that was gathered to present a strategy which satisfy consumer needs and exploit competitor weak points. Creating a long term roadmap which gives direction to the work that the engineering department will do. And doing both convincingly enough that upper management buy into the strategy you are proposing. This is the no-right-answer, risky work that product managers are paid for.
Re: The highest paid workers in Silicon Valley are product managers (2016)
#360Earlier quoted context omitted.
Software development is not one of the 'Professions', and never will be until it has a governing body and some degree of accountability for the shoddy work they can put out.
They do all countries have certifying bodies for engineers and admit it professionals. I never bothered going that route as the BCS kept changing their minds on qualifying experience and the rules and actually don't do anything concreate for their members unlike say the BMA does for doctors. So honest Q here if you feel so strongly why haven't you got your Ceng / E status
> So honest Q here if you feel so strongly why haven't you got your Ceng / E status
I don't feel strongly about it. I don't need people to call me an engineer, because I'm not an engineer and I have no intention of being one.
I'm a software developer, which is very different.