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How the Dutch created a casual biking culture

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Re: How the Dutch created a casual biking culture

#351

Post by nradov »

magduf wrote: post #323
bluejekyll wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Idaho it is perfectly legal for bicycles to treat Stop signs as yields, and Red lights as stop signs. It was attempted to get a similar law passed in CA: AB 1103. https://www.sacbee.com/news/politics-government/capitol-aler... Many cyclists would agree that a rolling stop allows them to get through, when there is no traffic, the intersection much faster and more safely due to the dangers of an intersection. I'm no…

Coming to a full stop on a bike is downright dangerous. The act of unclipping from your pedal, stopping, and then starting again and having to clip back into your pedal is far more dangerous than just slowing down sufficiently to make sure there's no oncoming traffic. You're more likely to fall over when transitioning between moving and stopped on a bike than any other time, and falling over at an intersection is ver…

There's nothing dangerous about stopping, I do it all the time and have never fallen. Cyclists who lack the skills to ride with clipless pedals just shouldn't use them. Or at least switch to something like Speedplay which make it easier to clip in and out.

Re: How the Dutch created a casual biking culture

#352

Post by nradov »

kazinator wrote: post #34
bunderbunder wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an American, whenever I see articles about Dutch cycling culture, the thing that stands out to me is that nobody is wearing helmets. In the US, I wouldn't dream of doing that - it's just too dangerous, because there's too much risk of being involved in a high speed collision. But, after having spent some time in the Netherlands, it's come to feel like a minor injustice every time I put my helmet on. It's a little…

Note that in the USA, it's possible to see children in a playground wearing helmets.

Most children you see wearing bike helmets on playgrounds rode their bikes there and just neglected to remove them. There are also a few children with seizure disorders who routinely wear helmets for protection.

Re: How the Dutch created a casual biking culture

#353

Post by analog31 »

BlackFly wrote: post #273
analog31 wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>> As a dutch person I would absolutely NOT want to ride a bike in the US, it's simply too dangerous. A lot of Americans also think it's too dangerous. It's an obstacle to getting more people on bikes. When people at my workplace see me with my bike, or find out that I'm a cyclist, they beg me to be careful, promise to wear a helmet, and so forth. I have friends who are avid cyclists, but who limit their riding to d…

> The Dutch seem so carefree. I think the helmets are a big part of this. If you go around telling people, "Body armor required," then they are not going to feel laissez-faire. The other side is the presumed liability on the part of the car. Cars have almost all the responsibility to ensure they do not collide with a bike in the Netherlands. That makes cycling more pedestrian, you can just go and overall not worry ab…

In my view, when you're on the bike, what you're thinking about is riding, and you have to be a lot more wary on US roads, helmet or not. I think the statistics back that up. Sometimes I go out without a helmet, and I still have to be ready to dodge a car or an obstacle in the road.

But I do think that helmets get more attention than they deserve. Oddly enough, among experienced cyclists, a helmet is just part of the equipment. You either wear one or you don't. But non-cyclists (the folks who "advise" me at my workplace), the helmet is the first thing they ask about.

Oh, one more thing, European roads tend to be in a lot better condition. I had a near-accident last week because I didn't notice a gaping hole in the road that would have sent me over the bars.

Re: How the Dutch created a casual biking culture

#354

Post by u801e »

magduf wrote: post #349
u801e wrote: post #335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never used clips on my pedals when commuting because of the fact that there are times I have to come to a stop where I may not have time to unclip. Using clips while riding in city traffic is like using cruise control while driving in city traffic.

Riding without clipless pedals means your feet slip all around and you have to pay more attention to your feet while pedaling. Or you have to use toe-clips, which are a PITA because you have to flip the pedal over to get your toe in. With clipless pedals, you just mash your foot in and go, and your foot is now in the perfect position and you don't have to think about it. But that transition time is more hazardous tha…

> Riding without clipless pedals means your feet slip all around and you have to pay more attention to your feet while pedaling.

The pedals on my bicycle have some slight metal protrusions that keep my feet in place while riding and work just fine with conventional shoes. Plus, in dry weather, I don't have a problem with my feet slipping off the pedals. Even in wet weather, they don't really slip that much unless I'm not careful about it.

Re: How the Dutch created a casual biking culture

#355

Post by rcMgD2BwE72F »

phil248 wrote: post #17

I was amazed at how mellow everyone in Amsterdam seemed while riding their bikes. In US cities, most cyclist act like they're in a race. They must run every stop sign, charge down every hill, graze every pedestrian... in downtown Amsterdam most people were going at a leisurely pace and if you get in their way, they just ding a little bell at you.

It's so dangerous to ride bikes in cities nowadays that that only the most dangerous bikers dare to ride.

If we had the infrastructures to protect the non-racers, you would have non-racers on the road and would feel like that the vast majority of bikers are mellow.

Re: How the Dutch created a casual biking culture

#356

Post by yladiz »

mcv wrote: post #311
yladiz wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It actually is a joke how bad some tests are. In a lot of cities in Florida your test is done in a parking lot with no real world driving with other cars, and it omits a lot of things, like parallel parking. Ideally licenses should be able to be transferred across states, but tests like the majority of ones in Florida mean drivers from there may be inadequately prepared for driving in some other states like CA.

I really hope this is an exaggeration. Still, the US is not the only place with very mixed standards for driving tests. I once heard that the easiest way to get a Dutch driving license was on the Caribbean island of Saba, where you'd get your license if you could drive around the central square without causing an accident. I knew someone who got his license there, and he didn't dare to drive a car in Netherland. Fort…

It's not an exaggeration. Taking a look at Hillsborough Country[1], two of the three DMVs have "on-site test tracks".

1: http://www.hillstax.org/services/services-driver-licenses.as...

Re: How the Dutch created a casual biking culture

#357

Post by TylerE »

yladiz wrote: post #356
mcv wrote: post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really hope this is an exaggeration. Still, the US is not the only place with very mixed standards for driving tests. I once heard that the easiest way to get a Dutch driving license was on the Caribbean island of Saba, where you'd get your license if you could drive around the central square without causing an accident. I knew someone who got his license there, and he didn't dare to drive a car in Netherland. Fort…

It's not an exaggeration. Taking a look at Hillsborough Country[1], two of the three DMVs have "on-site test tracks". 1: http://www.hillstax.org/services/services-driver-licenses.as...

The biggest problem, to my mind, is that there is no process for retesting.

IMO you should have to re-take the test every 5 years starting at 50... and maybe ever year starting from 70 or 75.

Re: How the Dutch created a casual biking culture

#358

Post by stevesimmons »

jiri wrote: post #232
Rainymood wrote: post #2

As a Dutch person I am pleasantly surprised by this article, it gets basically everything right. One thing though is that our geography works well with biking. I visited the US recently and you can drive for 30 minutes in a car and you are still in LA, if you drive for 30 minutes in the Netherlands you're in a completely different city. Everything is just closer and hence more bike-able. As a dutch person I would abs…

> One thing though is that our geography works well with biking. Yeah, that one. Your country is ridiculously flat with highest peak of around 300m above see level. On the other hand, there are a lot of raining days in Netherlands! I was very surprised that Dutch don't care too much about weather, they ride on sunny days same as on rainy days.

They also ride in the snow!

The Dutch rain typically comes in 15 minute blocks as bands of clouds cross the country. So most Dutch cyclists would check the Buienradar rain radar app on their phones and adjust their departure time accordingly.

Coincidentally to this discussion, last weekend I fell off my bike in Amsterdam: Cycling too fast, in the rain, hurrying to an appointment, and misjudged a turning, braked too hard, skidded, and hit the gutter.

That was my second bike crash in Amsterdam. The first was 8 years ago, when I was cycling, carrying a TV. Also in the rain.

Re: How the Dutch created a casual biking culture

#359

Post by stevesimmons »

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #243
psergeant wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> One thing though is that our geography works well with biking Right, 100%. I wonder if the cheap electric-assist bikes will make more countries / cities essentially “flat”

Electric assist bicycles are basically a smaller / lightweight alternative to scooters; I don't see (but I could be wrong) how e-bikes would be more prevalent if scooters already aren't.

Ebikes have become very popular in the Netherlands among the elderly. They're used to cycling but find the effort of a conventional bike harder as they get older.

Incidentally the one age group in the Netherlands with an increase in road deaths in recent years has been 65+. That's largely attributed to them using Ebikes to travel much faster, while having comparatively slow reaction times and less resilience to injuries sustained in the higher speed crashes.

Re: How the Dutch created a casual biking culture

#360

Post by _fbpt »

magduf wrote: post #324
_fbpt wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That you think it's easy to pass drivers tests in the US is a joke.

Your comment is ignorant and insulting, since you're basically calling him a liar. My US driving test was a joke. I pulled out of a parking space, pulled up to a road, took a right turn, drive 100-200 feet to an intersection, took a right turn, then took another right turn into the same parking lot I had just left, then parked. That was my entire driving test.

The original comment is ignorant and insulting, since it's implying I'm incompetent enough to have failed a joke of a test twice.
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