Power Worth Less Than Zero Spreads as Green Energy Floods the Grid

Post by PopeDotNinja » Wed, Aug 08, 2018, 1:08 PM UTC

floatrock wrote: post #48

DoctorOetker wrote: post #22

I don't truly understand this "problem". I understand storing the energy in batteries is currently very expensive economically and materially. However I believe there are plenty of "goods" (irrespective of if they are bulk materials, or partially processed products) which have a high processing energy per volume ratio (this does not need to be recoverable stored energy). Allow me to give an example: currently we have…

Capital costs vs. marginal costs. You're going to build a $100M desalination plant and run it for three hours a day? That's a ton of money sitting idle most of the day, far more than what is recovered with zero operating costs. (This is called the utilization factor -- how long a piece of equipment is used vs. staying idle) Ideally you want useful processes with low capital costs and expensive marginal/energy costs.…

Post by forkerenok » Wed, Aug 08, 2018, 1:14 PM UTC

fuzzbuzz wrote: post #310

undreren wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but theptip writes below that heating water in residential and commercial settings might be better. When I worked at Ørsted, we did this all the time . We had a huge electric kettle, which we used to produce district heating water. But there are many more things you can do with surplus energy. You can make methane gas from pure CO2 and hydrogen when you apply electric power as a catalyst. The methane can then be ea…

A banal long term way of storing energy is to pump water up to some high ground. Whenever you need it, use a turbine to get the energy back.

Post by antidesitter » Wed, Aug 08, 2018, 1:29 PM UTC

matt4077 wrote: post #275

rwcarlsen wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Low/negative prices (caused largely by various regulation/policies) have been putting a lot of economic pressure on existing nuclear power generation - sometimes causing it to close [1]. Generation that is largely replaced by natural gas plants. So maybe this very non-free-market state is actually not helping make forward progress on what many would consider to be one of the most important issues relating to energy -…

HN seems to have some macho fascination with nuclear power. Or at least that's the only reason I can think of why people would advocate for it, considering nuclear power is simply far too expensive. Yes, maybe the population at large lacks statistical understanding and needlessly fears nuclear power[0]. But it's still too expensive, as demonstrated by the complete lack of new construction. It'd be rather strange for…

Post by undreren » Wed, Aug 08, 2018, 1:39 PM UTC

08-15 wrote: post #348

undreren wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but theptip writes below that heating water in residential and commercial settings might be better. When I worked at Ørsted, we did this all the time . We had a huge electric kettle, which we used to produce district heating water. But there are many more things you can do with surplus energy. You can make methane gas from pure CO2 and hydrogen when you apply electric power as a catalyst. The methane can then be ea…

> We had a huge electric kettle, which we used to produce district heating water. ...and you thought you were heating with renewable energy. You were not. Much of the "surplus" power on the grid comes from coal plants (especially in Denmark!) that can't throttle down, so someone burns coal, converts the heat to electricity at an efficiency of 40% or so, and you turn it back into heat.

Post by test6554 » Wed, Aug 08, 2018, 2:24 PM UTC

floatrock wrote: post #48

DoctorOetker wrote: post #22

I don't truly understand this "problem". I understand storing the energy in batteries is currently very expensive economically and materially. However I believe there are plenty of "goods" (irrespective of if they are bulk materials, or partially processed products) which have a high processing energy per volume ratio (this does not need to be recoverable stored energy). Allow me to give an example: currently we have…

Capital costs vs. marginal costs. You're going to build a $100M desalination plant and run it for three hours a day? That's a ton of money sitting idle most of the day, far more than what is recovered with zero operating costs. (This is called the utilization factor -- how long a piece of equipment is used vs. staying idle) Ideally you want useful processes with low capital costs and expensive marginal/energy costs.…