Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Don't you guys know that in Europe higher education is free In SOME countries in europe, higher education is free. I've met plenty of Brits with student loans. They're still in Europe (and the eu for now)
We have to pay in the UK, however everyone gets 'free' student loans to cover it. They cover tuition (£9k per year) and you have the choice of a 'maintenance loan' (basically to cover living costs) of £3-12k depending on whether you live in London or not. I think interest matches inflation, it is paid back via a tax straight out of your pay check but not until you are earning more than £25k per year. Also worth notin…
US Household Debt Surpasses 2008 High
351–360 of 436 posts
Re: US Household Debt Surpasses 2008 High
#352Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Furthermore, by any measure that matters, the universities in the United States are the best in the world, bar none. So the competition to attend, places further pressure on those seeking degrees that do not immediately translate into a high paying job. We've made a mistake, as a society, by emphasizing "go to college" over "go to trade school". Maybe a very tiny minority of the top schools, but in my experience as…
~40% of the top 100 schools are in the US, as ranked by a non US entity. https://www.timeshighereducation.com/world-university-rankin...
Re: US Household Debt Surpasses 2008 High
#353Earlier quoted context omitted.
>Obviously nobody has a crystal ball and you can never tell when huge, industry-wrecking changes are coming, but it was well understood that majoring in Underwater Basket Weaving was not a great idea from a financial point of view. Have we forgotten this lesson? The most common undergraduate major is Business. The "liberal arts and humanities" make up about, what was it, 12% of all bachelor's degrees?
In my experience, a business major is the new communications or psych major. Basically, a last resort for those who can't do anything else.
Re: US Household Debt Surpasses 2008 High
#354I don't know if it's a "bubble" (I am not qualified to say that), but I can't imagine that the current trend with student loans will continue. Looking at the numbers for someone entering college in 2017, it feels nearly predatory what a good portion of private and out of state colleges are charging. Even with financial aid, $30-40k a year for 4-5 years is insane. I was fortunate enough to have parents who made saving…
I went to one of the UC schools and left with $121k in debt ($100k borrowed plus the interest I couldn't pay off while working during school). Basically didn't qualify for any sort of scholarships or grants due to my parents making "enough money." Don't know where they get that figure from, as its not like my parents' could afford to write a check for $25k/yr just for my education (especially not with my sister enter…
- $121k in loans is a lot in absolute terms. But compared to the other big purchase people often make, it's not expensive at all (and has a shorter period to expected ROI). The expected ROI on a degree is still massively positive.
- The opportunity to be able to earn -- in one's 20s -- a spare $2,350/mo from a job (versus starting a business) is remarkable. That's close to 70% of the median personal income in the US, which after 5 years will become disposable income for you. At 30, you will be able to basically throw away most of the salary of the median American worker (who is more senior than you). That's remarkable. A 5-year ROI is tremendous for most investments.
- The comparison with alternative career paths makes it entirely rational to borrow six figures for college, at least in the US. The existence of a few well-paid jobs that do not require a degree aside, several studies have consistently shown that college degrees increase lifetime earnings. Basically it boils down to borrowing a lot of money for college is a better bet than the alternative ("either you're slinging crack rock or you got a wicked jump shot.")
- Folks are comfortable financing houses and cars. It's interesting that they get squeamish when financing the one major purchase that's most likely to earn them money.
- Presumably stretching repayment out to 10 years or more would make the burden much more bearable. We finance houses over 30 years; it does make some sense to finance education over one's entire career.
- Obviously I get that the math is different for different career paths/majors/schools. But I'm kind of surprised that the math works out as well as it does.
Re: US Household Debt Surpasses 2008 High
#355Earlier quoted context omitted.
University is ripe for disruption. Not only has the prices spiraled out of control, no time in history has good quality information has been more available on the Internet. When I was in school, when YouTube was new, I would watch well crafted lectures from top tier professors for free. This allowed me to get a better handle on my brick and mortar class. The problem is the career value of a degree has not diminished,…
> The problem is the career value of a degree has not diminished, it's a bit of a network effect really. Maybe people can get hired from Coursera certificates, I would certainly consider it if I was a hiring manager. A university degree tells me three things a Coursera certificate doesn't: 1. A graduate have more breadth and depth in a given major. Standford's CS course includes math, physics, engineering, programmin…
I'm not saying that is what you are doing but it does seem to have hints of it.
Re: US Household Debt Surpasses 2008 High
#356Earlier quoted context omitted.
We've had 30 (40?) years of educators looking down on blue collar jobs and gearing everything towards pushing everyone to university because it's a golden ticket to a successful life. What most people didn't realize is that university was an attribute of successful people, not a prerequisite to be successful.* People who might have been totally successful in vocational school or a variety of other things have been di…
This. The idea that college somehow intrinsically causes you to earn more money is completely wrong and absurd. It completely conflates causation and correlation. Yet it's frequently trotted out as a justification for taking on student loan debt (as it was in this article). It's exactly the same as saying that people who own Ferraris make more money, so therefore the key to reducing poverty is increasing Ferrari owne…
Re: US Household Debt Surpasses 2008 High
#357Earlier quoted context omitted.
What is really mind-boggling is your comment. First, education is not, in any way, shape or form, free. You pay for it in taxes. Period. This isn't a pro/anti tax argument, but it's necessary to say. Second, you can also study CS for free in the United States or at a heavy scholarship. Large state schools subsidize a lot of engineers in their educational pursuit so long as you achieve good grades, or score well on en…
The podcast you're thinking of may be Dan Carlin's Common Sense, he recently did an episode on USA health care, where he touches on precisely the same points you mention.
Re: US Household Debt Surpasses 2008 High
#358Earlier quoted context omitted.
>went to school in the mid 90s >but it was well understood that majoring in Underwater Basket Weaving The way you make such a condescending argument and blame the victim takes away any credibility in your comment. The issue is that tuition has ballooned since the 90s. Tuition is outpacing income/inflation and most else, so regardless of what school or major, the ROI is going down for most. Also, even if you went to a…
Check your facts, most student loan debt hasn't been dischargeable since the 1970s. The 2005 change allowed for-profit banks to get in on the game.
http://www.dailycal.org/2014/12/22/history-uc-tuition-since-...
If random internet sites are to be believed, the $630 combined tuition plus fees in 1976 is roughly $2k today. An awful lot of students could manage that without aid.
Re: US Household Debt Surpasses 2008 High
#359Earlier quoted context omitted.
Eh, I tend to disagree. Great university's for sure, but the large majority of universities (particularly those accessible to anybody) reside in the United States. Now, I do agree that a university education doesn't have to cost as much as it does, but the scale of world-class universities in the rest of the world is dwarfed by the United States. Maybe students should not stop coming to US schools if they cost so muc…
> Great university's for sure, but the large majority of universities (particularly those accessible to anybody) reside in the United States. There are 4,140 in the US. https://www.infoplease.com/us/higher-education/number-us-col... There are about 4,000 in Europe. http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=URISERV:c...
Re: US Household Debt Surpasses 2008 High
#360Earlier quoted context omitted.
Because there are almost no jobs available that pay more than minimum wage that do not require a college degree.
Except, you know...software engineer, IT, DevOps, Infosec, WebDev, etc.
Also: youth with nontraditional backgrounds (e.g. women, ethnic minorities) obviously begin the IT hiring process at a disadvantage. Having a 4-year degree can level the playing field with "traditional" applications possessing only a HS diploma.