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UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

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Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#351

Post by matt4077 »

martinald wrote: post #281
pluma wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The often cited claim that the EU is undemocratic stems from a difference of opinion what "democratic" actually means. First of all: there is barely any nation that is truly democratic in the historic sense of the word. Most democracies are actually representational systems: citizens don't vote on every single issue, they elect someone to represent them and vote in their name. Who each representative actually represe…

You make good points, but the problem is in most countries knowledge of MEPs is close to nil. Turnout for European Parliament elections is also abysmal, in the UK 35%, NL 37% and even France and Germany are in the low 40s. It would be even lower if other elections weren't tagged along with the EU ones (eg usually the UK has local elections at the same time). There is an enormous amount of voter apathy towards the EU…

Apathy is indeed a problem, and the EU would obviously love higher turnout.

Using it as an argument against the EU is kinda circular, though. Only people who show up should et to complain.

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#352

Post by nthcolumn »

nicky0 wrote: post #343
ealexhudson wrote: post #3

I'm a big believer in not having assumptions and testing things with actual experiments. This is one experiment I'd rather not be participating in, though. It's difficult to see very much positive about this move; certainly there will be some benefits, but I expect greatly outweighed by the negatives (which will include higher prices, lower employment and probably lower standards for UK workers - the EU has consisten…

> which will include higher prices, lower employment and probably lower standards for UK workers I often see this kind of sweeping statement here on HN as if the consequences of Brexit are an already an established fact. How do you substantiate these predicitons? Are you aware of the term "project fear"[0]? 0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Fear_(British_politics...

Maybe the small matter that every single economic authority on the matter from our foreign allies like Barack Obama, to the IMF, the Bank Of England, the Confederation of British Industry, (and endless list) said it would be an unmitigated disaster... and then there are the people who think it is a good idea... Trump, Putin, Lafarge, Gove, and not even the the PM thought it was a good idea to start off with. Project Fear? - more like Project Shit Your Pants Now...

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#353

Post by dmix »

pimterry wrote: post #195
dmix wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The risks are really only economic. And those can be solved with trade pacts... without having to sacrifice any other independence such as with laws, courts, and borders. I'm from Canada and our economy (and defence) depends heavily on the US, we both strongly benefit from an economic relationship. It's mutually beneficial, as all pacts should be. Yet we don't have to worry about policy being dictated out of NAFTA or…

> Those [risks] can be solved with trade pacts without having to sacrifice any other independence such as with laws, courts, and borders. > I'm from Canada Er, didn't Canada just sign a trade pact with the EU which does sacrifice some of the independence of their borders, laws and courts? CETA will: * Create a new 'investment court system', where investors from the EU can challenge and block Canadian state decisions.…

> Er, didn't Canada just sign a trade pact with the EU which does sacrifice some of the independence of their borders, laws and courts? CETA will:

Yes, if anything this supports what I'm talking about, this is why I'm critical of the EU, dealing with EU bureaucrats always goes beyond strictly economic interests... but still CETA is hardly comparable to the ever expanding scope of being part of the EU.

Nor would I assume that agreements between the UK + US or Asian countries would necessarily include EU style requirements... especially considering the UK leaving EU for such reasons.

That plus TPP failed for similar reasons... it was far too complex and include thousands of pages of policy that go beyond simple mutually beneficial trade pacts.

Regardless, just because other trade agreements are bad and include baggage doesn't mean the UK should just bend over and take it from the EU. We should strive for better policies. TPP was a disaster and the recent reconsideration of NAFTA should make us rethink how we approach trade pacts. It's an opportunity to evolve.

But to evolve it needs to be part of the public forum. CETA passed very quietly in Canada. I hardly remember any talk of it until it was already well beyond debate. Much like they tried to keep TPP in secret backroom meetings. If it became a political issue earlier I'm not 100% sure CETA would have passed in it's current state.

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#354

Post by matt4077 »

dnautics wrote: post #258
Svip wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the EU does have a directly elected parliament? So where's the lack of democracy in the EU?

The eu's Parliament has de facto no power and all of the authority rests with the European commission, which is an unelected entity.

Parliament has gained a lot of 'de jure' power since Lisbon. With it (and, some argue, a few good moves by the previous President of the EU Parliament) has come a rise in 'de facto' power and visibility.

Entirely left out of your answer is the Council, with heads of state elected by whatever their country deems to be a democratic process. In practice, EU legislation requires agreement between the three institutions.

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#355

Post by s_dev »

bontoJR wrote: post #92
ealexhudson wrote: post #3

I'm a big believer in not having assumptions and testing things with actual experiments. This is one experiment I'd rather not be participating in, though. It's difficult to see very much positive about this move; certainly there will be some benefits, but I expect greatly outweighed by the negatives (which will include higher prices, lower employment and probably lower standards for UK workers - the EU has consisten…

These are pretty much the same forecasts Switzerland and Norway were supposed to face when they rejected to join the EU... people losing jobs, Swiss Franc falling, export collapsing, etc... well, it went a little bit in a different way. OFC leaving is totally a different thing from not being in at all, but still... there are going to be pro and cons, but the economy will adapt as happened in Switzerland and Norway. S…

Norway and Switzerland are effectively EU members in everything but name -- they pay in to the single market and accept the four freedoms.

They both have very good reason for not joining EU proper - Norway has a giant fishing industry relative to other industries and Switzerland wishes to preserve her neutrality.

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#356

Post by Xylakant »

gambiting wrote: post #335
agumonkey wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's also a very weakly motivated experiment. At least based on the morning after TV appearance of Nigel Farrage. I've rarely seen such a buffon face on someone. Less than 24h after celebrating the "win".

Don't forget that in an interview yesterday he said that if Brexit turns out to be a failed experiment, he will leave UK and live somewhere else. I'm sure his buddy Donald Trump will offer him a place to live.

AFAIR he wanted to emigrate to one of the eastern EU states. Irony is truly broken.

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#357

Post by djmobley »

lostboys67 wrote: post #286
djmobley wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Turnout was amongst the highest for any vote in recent history. What do you propose? Compulsory voting? Many were genuinely undecided and made a conscious decision to abstain.

2/3 or 75% majority which Is the standard for major changes

That is fine if there is a stable status quo.

The Brexit referendum would have had a huge impact either way.

A Remain vote would have weakened the UK government's position and emboldened the EU as it seeks to form an ever closer union of its member states.

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#358

Post by rayiner »

zekkius wrote: post #342
rayiner wrote: post #308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's at stake here is more fundamental than federalism: it's self determination. Throughout history, discrete groups have waged wars of independence to ensure that they can have a government that reflects their shared history, culture, and values. My family is from Bangladesh, which fought a war to separate from Pakistan over cultural/linguistic differences. In another example, Israel is engaged in an existential b…

Yes, humans are inclined to form tribes and to fear the other, just like our primitive ancestors. It's little reason to justify such division today, and especially not to participate in mass murder to achieve it.

> It's little reason to justify such division today, and especially not to participate in mass murder to achieve it.

Not at all! To use my Bangladesh example. Bangladesh was founded in 1971 as a secular republic. Pakistan thereafter veered towards theocracy, e.g. adopting Sharia law for criminal proceedings in 1976. Subsequent events have slowly chipped away at Bangladeshi secularism over the years, but had they remained with Pakistan it would have been a lost hope. And as for tribalism being obsolete, I don't agree. There are hundreds of millions of people who think I should be executed for leaving the religion I was born into: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2013/05/01.... Do you want those folks voting on the laws that govern you? If not, you're not arguing against "tribalism," you're just arguing about where the tribal lines should be drawn.

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#359

Post by matt4077 »

dalore wrote: post #244
fredley wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Independence from what? Should England be an Independent state? London? The City of London?

Each British homeowner should be independent. A man's house is his castle. The could all be lords of their own empire but band together when needed to fight common enemies. Perhaps they could all group together money to help pay for common services like roads etc.

I had to check your history to see if this is satire.

Since it's not: this is a completely misguided view of human nature. Humans are among the most social of all animals, and our successes and failures have always been a function of our ability to work together. Humans everywhere, and at any time, have created groups held together by a lot more than transactional opportunities.

And even if you were right, and it is our fundamental nature to be lone wolfs, plundering the lesser lords and raping their ladies: the actual overarching feature of humanity is our unique ability to overcome base instincts with reason and morality. And both reason and experience tell us that cooperation is much more successful as a strategy for anything you could possibly desire than the alternatives.

Re: UK triggers the official Brexit process in a letter to EU

#360

Post by kalleboo »

arca_vorago wrote: post #209

My theory on brexit has been for a long time now that, after entangling the EU with the Euro, and globalization actually hurting the first-world EU, the UK is simply attempting to isolate it's vulnerabilities to the coming impacts of globalization. If my theory is true, it means essentially that brexit is designed not to create wealth in the UK, but to make the losses less than the rest of the world by comparison. Wi…

I saw it the opposite way - the UK elite sees the EU as being too slow at negotiating free trade treaties (too many other EU countries are protectionist) and think they can do better.
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