Soaring Student Debt Prompts Calls for Relief • Hacker News Board

Re: Soaring Student Debt Prompts Calls for Relief

#351

Post by gerbilly » Wed, Sep 14, 2016, 12:33 AM UTC

morgante wrote: post #326

gerbilly wrote: post #320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There's also a choice aspect of this. Points taken above. I'll just point out that the focus on fairness is a strong human trait, and IMHO it is a trait that we over-express. Often our notion of fairness is very biased as well. We are most likely to recognize situations that are unfair against us, but easily gloss over all the unfair advantages we may have. An anecdote: One time I was complaining to my grandmother…

I don't think your anecdote or point is very strong unless you believe in the notion of "sin." I think I've been appropriately rewarded and punished for my decisions in life.

I believe the portion of my good fortune I have earned to be far far inferior to the total.

I'll probably never even _know_ the totality of my good fortune, like the portion of an iceberg that lies under water it's invisible to me.

I'm not trying to persuade exactly... I just feel that this may be true for many of us.

Anyway, thanks for listening.

Re: Soaring Student Debt Prompts Calls for Relief

#352

Post by jrs235 » Wed, Sep 14, 2016, 12:33 AM UTC

morgante wrote: post #202

melling wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you're incorrectly implying that people aren't successfully graduating? The problem is that people are graduating with huge debt and can't get jobs that pay well enough to pay off their debt.

Did you read the article? A large number of the people who default on their debt never graduated.

Rather than assuming and saying "did you read the article?" Perhaps rephrase your point to be: "According to the article..." or "The article says..."

I normally would down vote a comment that starts with DYRTA. I haven't this time, I wanted to use the opportunity to express how I think we can maintain HNs civility. Thank you.

Re: Soaring Student Debt Prompts Calls for Relief

#353

Post by tunesmith » Wed, Sep 14, 2016, 12:42 AM UTC

morgante wrote: post #176

Am I the only one who hates the notion of being forced to pay for other people's bad financial decisions? I made the choice to go to a slightly less prestigious school so I wouldn't have to go into debt for college. I also worked all through college to pay for my expenses. Should I now be punished for that decision? Why should we make people's financial mistakes consequence-free? I think the government should get out…

While there are certainly people that go into extreme amounts of student loan debt due to picking prestigious colleges, I don't think that is the real crisis here. Isn't debt also increasing for the vast majority of college students who are in whatever the middle-quintile of average students are?

I think a student from a middle class family (meaning loans and not grants) should be able to attend four years of an in-state college, get a full education, perhaps work a part-time job but also have time for the kind of valuable extracurricular activities that are a part of the college experience, and graduate, without going into an unreasonable amount of debt. But it sounds like the reality is that that amount of debt, for that scenario, has climbed quite a bit.

Re: Soaring Student Debt Prompts Calls for Relief

#354

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Sep 14, 2016, 12:53 AM UTC

whyenot wrote: post #281

zeveb wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Am I the only one who hates the notion of being forced to pay for other people's bad financial decisions? Not just that: this is, ultimately, a giveaway to the academic classes, who have lucked into the business of selling things to unwise consumers spending someone else's money. When these loans are forgiven (let's not fool ourselves: they will be), the federal government will have moved $1.3 trillion into the cof…

I don't see it. Academia already has this money. It was paid to them as tuition. If loans are forgiven, the money will be "moved" (so to speak) to the bank accounts of the indebted, not academia. In the case of state schools, student loans also benefitted the tax payers. Student loans means such schools can charge a higher tuition, which means they need fewer subsidies from the the state.

[deleted]

Re: Soaring Student Debt Prompts Calls for Relief

#355

Post by banusaur » Wed, Sep 14, 2016, 1:00 AM UTC

morgante wrote: post #176

Am I the only one who hates the notion of being forced to pay for other people's bad financial decisions? I made the choice to go to a slightly less prestigious school so I wouldn't have to go into debt for college. I also worked all through college to pay for my expenses. Should I now be punished for that decision? Why should we make people's financial mistakes consequence-free? I think the government should get out…

I took out loans for college. After a few years out working, I've just about paid them off. 4 months to go and I'm finished.

Even though I worked hard to pay back everything with interest, I still wouldn't wish the experience on anybody. I don't understand how funding other people's education is somehow a "punishment" to me.

Re: Soaring Student Debt Prompts Calls for Relief

#356

Post by twblalock » Wed, Sep 14, 2016, 1:01 AM UTC

There are a few things that the government could do to help, without blanket loan forgiveness:

1. Allow people to pay off their loans with pre-tax dollars, just like 401k investments.

2. Cap interest rates. The high rates are a big problem for people with large balances. The interest rates are a little lower now than the used to be -- 6.8% was standard for Federal loans for many years, and private loans are even higher.

3. Limit the amount that can be borrowed in the first place. Colleges have been raising tuition because they know students will be able to get the money. Apparently there are already limits, but I know people with over $100k in debt for a bachelor's degree, so clearly the limits aren't low enough. Limit what students will borrow, and you limit what they can pay -- tuition increases will become a lot harder to justify.

4. Make it easier to discharge loans in bankruptcy. This will also reduce lending, which is actually a good thing.

Re: Soaring Student Debt Prompts Calls for Relief

#357

Post by madengr » Wed, Sep 14, 2016, 1:04 AM UTC

jonahrd wrote: post #184

morgante wrote: post #176

Am I the only one who hates the notion of being forced to pay for other people's bad financial decisions? I made the choice to go to a slightly less prestigious school so I wouldn't have to go into debt for college. I also worked all through college to pay for my expenses. Should I now be punished for that decision? Why should we make people's financial mistakes consequence-free? I think the government should get out…

You may be right that it's a poor financial decision, but I still hope to one day live in a country where people can pursue education in any subject matter (not just STEM/other money makers) for the pure purpose of educational fulfillment. That can only be done with a system that helps pay for education instead of letting the market decide which degrees are most valuable in terms of pure capitalistic measures

They can; pick up a book.

Re: Soaring Student Debt Prompts Calls for Relief

#358

Post by paulcole » Wed, Sep 14, 2016, 1:05 AM UTC

ChemicalWarfare wrote: post #221

morgante wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like toomuchtodo mentions, we could treat it like other unsecured debt (like credit card debt). Just because it's unsecured doesn't mean we shouldn't be able to discharge it with bankruptcy. Get the government out of the loan business and the market will correct itself. You won't be able to get a loan for a useless degree and if you end up being unable to pay off your loan you can go through normal bankruptcy proceed…

Upvoted. But. The argument against this could be that due to the unsecured nature of the six-figure (potentially) debt the free market rates will be insane effectively reducing access to higher ed for those who can't afford it without the loans. Then again, if less ppl could afford a degree in Queer Musicology (does exist - https://www.musicology.ucla.edu/mission-and-history-1 ) or let's say Environmental Studies etc…

>Environmental Studies

God forbid.

Re: Soaring Student Debt Prompts Calls for Relief

#359

Post by paulcole » Wed, Sep 14, 2016, 1:06 AM UTC

GunboatDiplomat wrote: post #350

deegles wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How would one repossess an education? Isn't that the reason student loans are not dischargeable?

Make them hand back their diploma, strip their name from all documentation of ever having gone to the school, bar them from referencing their degree in any way.

Dunno why you're being downvoted for this. It makes a lot of sense, but is practically useless since fewer employers will care.

Re: Soaring Student Debt Prompts Calls for Relief

#360

Post by ThrustVectoring » Wed, Sep 14, 2016, 1:09 AM UTC

karma_vaccum123 wrote: post #59

This will impact every other aspect of our consumption economy...home sales and even car sales will be impacted as working adults have to dedicate more and more earning potential to paying off student loans...far in excess of any real economic value these degrees have provided. I hate to get all "Zero Hedge", but this really does stink of some conspiracy to turn the middle class into lifelong renters instead of owner…

It doesn't need a conspiracy - macroeconomic forces and demographics are more than enough. On a societal and generational scale, it's basically impossible to make things now and have them be valuable in the future. Roads crumble, machines break down, inventions become obsolete, and in general what you did thirty years ago is of no particular value today. The one small exception to this is deciding to pump oil out of the ground later instead of today.

So if saving real goods and services doesn't work, what does? You can make things now, and sell them to people for dollars or some equivalent promise of future goods and services. Then you can later redeem these for the stuff you need later.

Oh, and did I mention the generational stuff? Small family sizes and aging Baby Boomers means that there's huge pressure to turn today's resources into promises to give people stuff later. Hence, debt.

I'd actually prefer if a conspiracy was responsible for this. Economic forces make a lot more people work a lot harder to push back against changes. Price controls are a great case in point for this.