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The PyCon Incident

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Re: The PyCon Incident

#341

Post by mturmon »

rhizome wrote: post #126
moistgorilla wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Taking a picture of two people without their permission and posting it on the internet eventually causing one of them to get fired doesn't seem like abuse to you? Why didn't she tell them to just be quiet? That's what normal people do.

As a matter of fact, if you read her blog post about all of this, she recommends the same thing: What has to change is that everyone must take personal accountability and speak up when they hear something that isn’t ok. It takes three words to make a difference: “That’s not cool.” However, she appears to have not followed her own advice. I think it probably would have turned out differently if she had, though.

The conference organizers ask you to not handle it yourself: see https://us.pycon.org/2013/about/code-of-conduct/harassment-i..., where it says:

"Report the harassment incident (preferably in writing) to a conference staff member"

If she had asked them to quiet down, it could have turned into a pissing match. Or maybe they would have complied. You never know how it's going to play out.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#342

Post by wpietri »

rburhum wrote: post #262
wpietri wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imagine this situation: You are walking down the street. It starts to rain, so you duck into the nearest business, a bar. You order a beer, and realize that you have stepped into a gay bar. The table behind you starts making jokes about how virgin anuses are the best. They are pretty big guys, leather daddies. You worry they're talking about you, about your anus. You worry. That feeling of discomfort? The way your he…

I live in SF. I am immune to feeling remotely discomforted by actions/sights/conversations like that.

I live in SF as well, and I would also probably feel safe. But that's because my lifetime risk of sexual assault is very low, and San Francisco is a pretty safe place.

But if you need a different story to imagine feeling unsafe because suddenly people around you are talking about sex, I'm sure you can make one up. The point was to help Joeboy understand the feeling, not the specifics of the situation.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#343

Post by ldh »

stephengillie wrote: post #266
Joeboy wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed, I am really puzzled as to why these "jokes" are supposed to be offensive to women. They might be offensive to people raised in some cultures / subcultures, and they don't sound like they're great jokes in any culture, but nobody ever told me about the meeting where women decided knob jokes were offensive. In fact a female friend texted me one about an hour ago.

That "these jokes are sexist or offensive to women" was an axiom (in the logic sense) in my parents' religious household. It's incredibly confusing to see good and respectable people (like your friend) so eager to debase themselves with this humor.

It's not exactly great humor, but I'm confused as to why this is offensive to women specifically (let alone an axiom of sexism). Because it references male organs? They're not referring to females at all. Not to be too reductionist, but that leaves me thinking of two possible conclusions:

1. women are too delicate to handle any references to anatomy

or

2. the "jokes" were simply crude and, while off-putting to anyone with a developed sense of humor, nothing to write (tweet?) home about with regards to being offensive

Re: The PyCon Incident

#344

Post by glass_of_water »

stephengillie wrote: post #266
Joeboy wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed, I am really puzzled as to why these "jokes" are supposed to be offensive to women. They might be offensive to people raised in some cultures / subcultures, and they don't sound like they're great jokes in any culture, but nobody ever told me about the meeting where women decided knob jokes were offensive. In fact a female friend texted me one about an hour ago.

That "these jokes are sexist or offensive to women" was an axiom (in the logic sense) in my parents' religious household. It's incredibly confusing to see good and respectable people (like your friend) so eager to debase themselves with this humor.

How are they "debasing themselves with this humor"?

Re: The PyCon Incident

#345

Post by jasonlotito »

ratat wrote: post #331
jasonlotito wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm confused? SendGrid didn't fire the guy. So, by boycotting the SendGrid, but not the company that fired the guy, the problem is being offended and speaking up, not the firing.

The problem is publicly posting a creepily-taken photograph of two friends at a conference, with entirely baseless slanderous claims of something you allegedly overheard them say to each other.

Baseless? PyCon disagrees, and apparently, so do the two friends.

http://pycon.blogspot.com/2013/03/pycon-response-to-inapprop...

So, unless PyCon is lying, the claims were verified. If they had not been, you'd have a point. If she had made the claims, but never went to PyCon and resolved it properly, you'd be dead on.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#346

Post by newnewnew »

lizzard wrote: post #218
paranoiacblack wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But you really shouldn't have to make politically incorrect jokes and references to make yourself fit in because of your gender. People who feel like they can't be themselves around you because of your gender have other hangups that are unrelated to you. If they truly believe that they can't joke around women, that's a failing of social understanding. It doesn't really matter if the joke was lewd or offensive or if y…

Apparently the con agreed that it was offensive behavior, and so did the employer.

The thing about PC is that even if you disagree with it, you'll still be vilified. The smart thing for an employer to do is the PC thing, even if they think it is wrong. Why risk being singled out and made an example of?

Re: The PyCon Incident

#347

Post by marginalboy »

Am I cultivating a hyperactive sense of irony if I point out that, instead of turning around and asking them to take it elsewhere (as a mature adult ought to have done), she played the "damsel in distress" card and tweeted to thousands of people to come stop the big, bad boys behind her from making naughty jokes?

Re: The PyCon Incident

#348

Post by jules »

wpietri wrote: post #191
Joeboy wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed, I am really puzzled as to why these "jokes" are supposed to be offensive to women. They might be offensive to people raised in some cultures / subcultures, and they don't sound like they're great jokes in any culture, but nobody ever told me about the meeting where women decided knob jokes were offensive. In fact a female friend texted me one about an hour ago.

Imagine this situation: You are walking down the street. It starts to rain, so you duck into the nearest business, a bar. You order a beer, and realize that you have stepped into a gay bar. The table behind you starts making jokes about how virgin anuses are the best. They are pretty big guys, leather daddies. You worry they're talking about you, about your anus. You worry. That feeling of discomfort? The way your he…

This is the funniest comment I've read in a while, but it's also sad. You managed to insult women, gay men and the hacker news reader at the same time. I don't know which women you're basing this on, but the ones I know don't fear for their life when they hear a penis joke, even though it's distasteful. And I don't know which gay bars you frequent, but I've never heard anything close to that. Even if it were the case that you heard something like this, you should have fear because gay men will surely rape you, right? And the average hacker news reader is not stupid enough to fall for this ridiculous comparison between talking about virgin anuses and making a penis joke. Equivalent would be if the guys in the conference were talking about how good virgin vaginas are when a woman sits down in front of them. If that was the situation you can be sure that they would have no support here.

Re: The PyCon Incident

#349

Post by blhack »

wpietri wrote: post #297
ErrantX wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Women feel that a lot. No, no they really don't! Don't get me wrong, there are major gender issues within our society (not just the software industry). One of them is, this idea that ''all'' women are tender hearted souls who are ''constantly'' scared of any man that looks at them funny :) There is a broad difference between discomfort and fear. And whilst the latter is significant, the core problem is the former.

You should talk to more women about this. I'm not suggesting women are scared little rabbits, running all the time. I'm saying that they are at substantial risk of sexual assault and other predation (US lifetime chance of sexual assault: 1 in 6), and are frequently aware of situations where they might possibly be in danger. It's an entirely rational response. I'm trying to help Joeboy see why well-meant and innocent-…

Are you seriously trying to draw a connection between two guys making a joke to each other about how the word "dongle" sounds like the word "dong"...

...to a person being sexually assaulted?

Re: The PyCon Incident

#350

Post by sergiotapia »

pencilcode wrote: post #190
sergiotapia wrote: post #17

I already sent SendGrid's sales department an email that I will boycott their company and recommend others do so as well moving forward. Where I work we were considering between SendGrid or Mandrill and this incident practically made our choice for us. We cannot and _will not_ support a company that backs[1] a person like this. [1] - https://twitter.com/adriarichards/status/314452708549603328

They were being idiots and violating the code of conduct of pycon, and YES, it does apply to private conversations that others can't avoid hearing since they're in a public place. She shamed them rightly. As for them being fired, that was the company's call - who employed them. Now an anonymous guy posts this, she explains the whole sequence and in the end it's her fault. No, the responsability lies with who made the…

>They were being idiots and violating the code of conduct of pycon

I disagree entirely. The situation is one I could easily imagine myself in with my best friend. The two people in question did not curse, berate anyone or even direct their jokes to anobody.

This asshole just wanted to pick a fight and caused a father to lose his job over dumb shit (ps: I'm still waiting for the company name to crop up, he didn't deserve to get fired).

Now when actual instances of sexism in tech (and trust me - in Bolivia THERE IS TONS OF THIS) occur, people will roll their eyes. Never cry wolf.

EDIT:

The man who was fired used to work for PlayHaven. http://www.playhaven.com/

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