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Kaiser nurses say AI, surveillance are making their jobs and patient care worse

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Re: Kaiser nurses say AI, surveillance are making their jobs and patient care worse

#341
post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In 2011, I took an AI course at my university and it was all perceptrons and neural networks.

I took one longer ago than that and it wasn't all perceptrons and neural networks. It included other things too, like: planning, search methods, inference engines, decision trees, ...

Yeah, in my university there were two AI professors, one did neural networks, and one did search stuff, and it depended on whom you are assigned to.

Re: Kaiser nurses say AI, surveillance are making their jobs and patient care worse

#342
post #235
post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s machine learning, which people routinely called AI not so long ago.

ML was always marketed separately as AI/ML, with AI being things like CNNs/RNNs/BERTs and such. Always felt like a distinction without a difference.

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Re: Kaiser nurses say AI, surveillance are making their jobs and patient care worse

#343

I RFTA and the majority of the complaints are about call center metrics and the pressure to ration care. These are real concerns about misuse of metrics, but not AI. The AI empathy thing was a 2024 pilot that was discontinued. FWIW my wife works for Kaiser and finds a lot of value in the the medical LLM tools available to her. She tells me being able to do live translation, summarize notes, and quickly get comprehens…

Cardiac events from Apple Watches is not “AI” though

AI and ML have very clear definitions[1]. ML has been a subset of AI, always has been. Latest marketing or "scare quotes" doesn't/shouldn't change that. Especially not in a technical forum like HN.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_intelligence

Ctrl-F Machine Learning. Apple Watch alerts are Machine Learning

Re: Kaiser nurses say AI, surveillance are making their jobs and patient care worse

#344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My local supermarket places the almond milk in the dairy section, and some people find this very upsetting.

That example kind of illustrates my point though? ML being in an AI book doesn't mean ML is AI, just as being in the dairy section does not make almond milk dairy.

It illustrates that some people can’t distinguish between a useful label by association for the general public, and their own desperate compulsion to litigate hair-splitting category distinctions.

Someone who was truly on the ball on this matter might’ve observed that Edinburgh in the 90s was so balkanized by internecine personality conflicts that most research that might later be strictly labelled “machine learning” actually took place in adjacent units and not directly under the DAIry. But I suppose you haven’t heard that, either.

Re: Kaiser nurses say AI, surveillance are making their jobs and patient care worse

#345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The “overlap” is that all machine learning is AI ... "All machine learning" is not AI, as k-means clustering and linear regression, amongst others, are very much ML without qualifying as AI algorithms.

The machine is learning something so that it can produce outputs based on its learned knowledge. At a high level that seems to be very clearly AI. What am I missing here? You’re probably right, I’m asking genuinely.

It's a matter of definitions, but I can at least understand someone wanting to make a distinction between reactive and non-reactive 'AI' (such as data filters).

There's overlap and edge cases, though: Maybe you have a program that summarizes texts. One could argue that's no different from a passive filter. But can you then ask questions about the text? That's unquestionably AI.

Re: Kaiser nurses say AI, surveillance are making their jobs and patient care worse

#346

That is surprising. My primary care provider had a different response. Basically he said something in line of "You wouldn't believe how much of a relief it has been. In your last visit, you saw me typing everything you were saying, right? I don't have to. I can listen to you and take very specific notes as necessary as opposed to focusing on both typing and listening to you at the same time. It has bought my stress l…

I've seen the quality of transcriptions, and it's awful. I wouldn't trust it for something as trivial as meeting notes, let alone medical transcripts. Either this doctor is going over the notes later to summarize them for your records anyway (which will cost them just as much time as the old way), or they're relying on the LLM to summarize, which is even more irresponsible.

Re: Kaiser nurses say AI, surveillance are making their jobs and patient care worse

#347
post #161
post #3

If you think using a machine to evaluate how well a human is showing empathy is a good idea, you probably shouldn't have any position of power.

If a human’s performance for 40 plus hours a week can be reduced to a performance score , that too in a field like healthcare, that alone feels weird. Sure there needs to be some way to reward people/evaluate their work etc, but I dunno if management by metrics is the best way, especially when those numbers are calculated by an algorithm. Where has all the empathy gone? And common sense? :(

Common sense would be not prioritising inefficient technology to automate few things and instead invest in people?

Re: Kaiser nurses say AI, surveillance are making their jobs and patient care worse

#348

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being close relative for several med and care workers we have discussed it a lot and consensus is that it really depends. For example relying on LLM summaries sounds great until it doesn't. It doesn't matter whether you misunderstand LLM summary or LLM "misunderstands" you – there are real risks involved, and you wouldn't want them to weigh on your conscience if they were to materialize. Relying on LLM to summarize t…

I don’t think that it is possible to both allow the use of LLM and not mandate them in modern metric driven work places. Either you ban them or you force people to use them for game theoretic reasons: they are slower than their peers and quality of the work is harder to measure than quantity. All you achieve is shifting the blame to the employees if the LLM messes up. Come to think of it, that probably is a highly de…

> All you achieve is shifting the blame to the employees if the LLM messes up.

How is this not a good thing for everyone?

Re: Kaiser nurses say AI, surveillance are making their jobs and patient care worse

#349
post #331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

everyone is very thirsty for AI hate, so its not unexpected. Today its a mixed bag of corpo hate, anxiety about the future, inequality and traditional class warfare, combined with the typical technical ignorance. I would expect companies to blend shit metrics with AI systems, if not at Kaiser then at other places. People lack imagination and using AI to monitor your workforce has to be one of the possibly worst ways…

> Today its a mixed bag of corpo hate, anxiety about the future, inequality and traditional class warfare, combined with the typical technical ignorance. Are there no actual problems with what it promises/how we're expected to use it at work/how it is used against us by people who use it at work? Is it just anxieties and feelings, that aren't actually grounded in anything? Everything's getting better for everyone, no…

Nobody knows what's actually going to happen, so we assume the worst. It's like how we like to shit on Amazon without appreciating how some people have benefitted from being able to side-step the gatekeepers of old by being able to go straight to market themselves without needing bricks and mortar. Humanity, fear and distrust are best of friends. That's what I'm calling out, I have no interest in playing Nostradamus.

I think OP is a good case in point where people are blaming AI but really the issue here is the human in the loop, the person implementing these abhorrent policies that happen to be powered by AI.

Re: Kaiser nurses say AI, surveillance are making their jobs and patient care worse

#350
post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_intelligence As it is taught literally every single AI/machine learning course on the world, machine learning is very much part of AI completely since inception. I don’t completely understand why it is this important for you to argue against this completely defined fact.

It is correct to argue about misleading terminology. "AI" contains the word "intelligence", and for instance logistic regression algorithm is not intelligent, while it is clearly ML, since machine learns something. As Machine learning is broader category, it should include Artificial Intelligence, not vice versa. Also, 'every single course' is perhaps an overstatement - a course that I co-authored tries to get it rig…

You're just making up your own definitions. Have at it, but as you've been told: this stuff is not new.
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