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We should have the ability to run any code we want on hardware we own

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Re: We should have the ability to run any code we want on hardware we own

#341

Post by Jolter »

beeflet wrote: post #331
tzury wrote: post #84

We need both options to coexist: 1. Open, hackable hardware for those who want full control and for driving innovation 2. Locked-down, managed devices for vulnerable users who benefit from protection This concept of "I should run any code on hardware I own" is completely wrong as a universal principle. Yes, we absolutely should be able to run any code we want on open hardware we own - that option must exist. But we s…

Do we need the second option to exist? The world is dangerous place. If you can't figure out a computer perhaps you're just unfit to participate in the modern economy. The existence of locked-down hardware eliminates the feasibility of open hardware through network effects. That is what is happening now.

You realize you’re discounting 98% of the world’s population, right?

Re: We should have the ability to run any code we want on hardware we own

#342

Post by zwnow »

liendolucas wrote: post #339

One of the biggest problems (if not the biggest) is that this desire is still a niche desire. If non-techie people would somehow be convinced that indeed hardware/software freedom is a basic right no matter the device we would be in a different position to pressure governments. How can people be convinced about it is the hardest part. How do you convince people that have no idea about how technology and corporation i…

Talk to people. I know many of us are socially awkward but if you never talk to people they will never learn. Big tech is not combating hate on their platforms because they know it divides people. Combat that by being social and talk to people.

Re: We should have the ability to run any code we want on hardware we own

#343

Post by Silhouette »

zmmmmm wrote: post #165

> In this context this would mean having the ability and documentation to build or install alternative operating systems on this hardware It doesn't work. Everything from banks to Netflix and others are slowly edging out anything where they can't fully verify the chain of control to an entity they can have a legal or contractual relationship with. To be clear, this is fundamental, not incidental. You can't run your o…

This is ultimately a form of collusion and anti-competitive behaviour - practices that we prohibit in other scenarios because we consider them harmful to our society. It's obvious why some large organisations would like more control over our lives. It's not obvious why we should let them have it.

Unfortunately for now it seems our representatives are letting them have it so personally I'm rooting for a snake-eating-its-tail moment as a result of Windows 10 losing support. There will inevitably be erosion of security and support for applications on Windows 10 once Microsoft declares it yesterday's OS - as we've seen with past versions of Windows. This time there is the added complication that a lot of perfectly good hardware can't run Windows 11 - largely because of the TPM/verification issue we're discussing.

So probably a lot of people who haven't moved to 11 yet aren't going to unless their current computer breaks and they get 11 by default when they buy a replacement. If the charts are correct then 11 only recently overtook 10 in user numbers. After all this time and despite all the pressure from Microsoft and the imminent EOL of Windows 10 over 40% of Windows users are still running that version. (https://gs.statcounter.com/os-version-market-share/windows/d...) So how exactly do the big organisations that want to control the client plan to deal with that over the next few years?

Unfortunately unless there is also some sort of intervention to deal with the collusion and market manipulation by vested interests I doubt enough Windows 10 refugees will jump to open platforms when their current devices fail for those open platforms to reach a critical mass of users. If five years from now Windows 10 user levels are negligible and almost all of the former users are now on Windows 11+ by default then the controlled client side probably wins effectively forever. I think it would take something dramatic happening that increased the desktop market share of open alternatives like Linux to say 10+% to avoid this fate. The only likely source of that drama I can see is if Valve's support for gaming on Linux encourages significant numbers of home users to switch and then general public awareness that you don't have to run Windows or macOS increases.

Re: We should have the ability to run any code we want on hardware we own

#344

Post by beeflet »

Aerroon wrote: post #250
divan wrote: post #31

> It should be possible to run Android on an iPhone and manufacturers should be required by law to provide enough technical support and documentation to make the development of new operating systems possible As someone who enjoyed Linux phones like the Nokia N900/950 and would love to see those hacker-spirited devices again, statements like this sound more than naïve to me. I can acknowledge my own interests here (ha…

>“Hardware I own” sounds like you bought a pan and demand the right to cook any food you want. Because I did. How come I can do what I want with my computer, but not my phone? Why are phones so inferior in this area? My phone is more powerful than many of the computers I've had in the past, yet I need to jump through a million hoops to use it as a software development platform. Why?

A very profitable instance of market segmentation

Re: We should have the ability to run any code we want on hardware we own

#346

Post by nik282000 »

judge2020 wrote: post #150
stale2002 wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Locked-down, managed devices for vulnerable users who benefit from protection Thats fine! Just make sure it is possible for someone to take the same device and remove the locked down protections. Make it require a difficult/obvious factory reset to enable, if you are concerned about someone being "tricked" into turning off the lockdown. If someone wants baby mode on, all power too them! Thats their choice. Just lik…

> Make it require a difficult/obvious factory reset to enable, if you are concerned about someone being "tricked" into turning off the lockdown. Is there also a way to make it obvious to the user that a device is running non-OEM software? For example, imagine someone intercepts a new device parcel, flashes spyware on it, then delivers it in similar/the same packaging unbeknownst to the end user. The same could be sai…

Pixel phones do this. Flashing a non-oem rom causes it to show a very "your device is broken" looking screen every time you boot.

Re: We should have the ability to run any code we want on hardware we own

#347

Post by [deleted] »

zmmmmm wrote: post #165

> In this context this would mean having the ability and documentation to build or install alternative operating systems on this hardware It doesn't work. Everything from banks to Netflix and others are slowly edging out anything where they can't fully verify the chain of control to an entity they can have a legal or contractual relationship with. To be clear, this is fundamental, not incidental. You can't run your o…

[deleted]

Re: We should have the ability to run any code we want on hardware we own

#348

Post by Someone »

spaqin wrote: post #283
josephg wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My parents are getting old and they aren't tech savvy. The missing piece here is that I want my parents to have a computer they can safely do their banking on, without leaving them vulnerable to scams and viruses and the like. I like that they have iphones. Doing internet banking on their phone is safer than doing it on their desktop computer. Why is that? The reason is that the desktop PC security model is deeply fl…

Your parents are more likely to be a victim of a phone call scam than malware, even on PC. There is also no guarantee that malware will not slip through cracks of official stores or signatures. You can also choose to do your banking at the physical branch. We already had "best of both worlds", especially on mobile OSes - granular permissions per-app were quite good, and on Android until few years ago root was widely…

> You can also choose to do your banking at the physical branch

The ones banks that do have physical presence are closing left and right? Also, I don’t think I can money transfers at the physical office of my bank.

Re: We should have the ability to run any code we want on hardware we own

#349

Post by Silhouette »

nradov wrote: post #245
zmmmmm wrote: post #165

> In this context this would mean having the ability and documentation to build or install alternative operating systems on this hardware It doesn't work. Everything from banks to Netflix and others are slowly edging out anything where they can't fully verify the chain of control to an entity they can have a legal or contractual relationship with. To be clear, this is fundamental, not incidental. You can't run your o…

You could just not watch Netflix. Most of the content is kind of crap anyway, low effort filler. And the streaming services have trouble even licensing third-party content at all unless they have robust copy protection. That may be stupid because it drives more consumers to privacy but copyright holders are free to negotiate any licensing terms they want.

You could just not watch Netflix.

The digital hermit argument is not going to resonate with 99.9% of users. People buy devices because they want to do stuff. Telling them they shouldn't do what they want to do is never going to convince anyone.

The real question is where are the representatives who are supposed to be acting in the interests of their people while all this is happening? We seem to have regulatory capture on a global scale now where there isn't really anyone in government even making the case that all these consumer-hostile practices should be disrupted. They apparently recognize the economic argument that big business makes big bucks but completely ignore the eroding value of technology to our quality of life.

Re: We should have the ability to run any code we want on hardware we own

#350

Post by charcircuit »

realusername wrote: post #338
josephg wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My parents are getting old and they aren't tech savvy. The missing piece here is that I want my parents to have a computer they can safely do their banking on, without leaving them vulnerable to scams and viruses and the like. I like that they have iphones. Doing internet banking on their phone is safer than doing it on their desktop computer. Why is that? The reason is that the desktop PC security model is deeply fl…

Well no, if your parents truly are tech illiterate, I would give them Ubuntu and not an iPhone. With the iPhone they get the risk of answering to a scam call or scam sms and giving them the access of their bank account. Ubuntu is almost bullet proof for beginners. In fact, that's what I've done for my parents and I had to retire the computer and get another one because it's the hardware which became too old after 15…

Like the parent said Ubuntu has horrible security. It would be better to just not buy a phone line for the iphone if you don't want phone calls or texts.
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