Live data from Hacker News

Stop selling “unlimited”, when you mean “until we change our minds”

blog.kilocode.ai

341–350 of 363 posts

Re: Stop selling “unlimited”, when you mean “until we change our minds”

#341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just completely ignoring LLMs is like not wanting to use autocomplete or language servers, preferring to hand-craft everything. But on the other hand there is the other end who think AGI coming in a few months and LLMs are omniscient knowledge machines. There is a sweet spot in the middle.

For me, the sweet spot seems to be "keep an eye on LLM developments, but don't waste work time trying to use them yet".

I'd suggest using LLMs as "Autocomplete on steroids" and see how that goes.

If online models aren't your thing twinny.dev + ollama will make it fully local.

Re: Stop selling “unlimited”, when you mean “until we change our minds”

#342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's still work for artisanal woodworkers, doing everything by hand with the utmost care[0] But that doesn't change the fact that the VAST majority of people are just fine with mass-produced furniture I think this is the difference that's going to happen to software. There's the one doing everything in bare vim with zero assist, just rawdogging function names and library methods from rote memory. And then there's…

This is an interesting analogy as I have found that unless you are regularly in contact with hand made furniture, you have little feel for what is different about mass produced furniture and why anything else is desirable. There may very well be a texture to “hand crafted” software that will be totally lost on users. But I kind of doubt the difference will be anything like the difference in furniture.

IMO it's the same in furniture.

There will always be people who know the difference and care about the difference. And are prepared to pay the premium for handcrafted furniture.

But the vast majority of people either won't care or don't know the difference - mostly because they've never experienced it. They just take it for grated that their IKEA cardboard stuff won't make it through a move and buy a new one.

And then there's the one person with the almost century old desk that was handmade from hardwood and is practically indestructible and fully repairable if something cracks.

Re: Stop selling “unlimited”, when you mean “until we change our minds”

#343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Still, you can't get "unlimited" soup cans from your next door supermarket even paying

Which is why they don’t sell it as “unlimited.” The gripe isn’t that there are limits, it’s that it’s sold as “unlimited” but there are limits.

Which to any reasonable person (and it's on the fine print) should mean reasonable limits

But I guess some people do really need "Eggs: contain eggs" in their egg carton otherwise they will throw a legal fit

Re: Stop selling “unlimited”, when you mean “until we change our minds”

#344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is interesting, in my experience these tools work quite well on larger codebases but it depends how you use them and I haven't really found a counterexample. Do you maybe have a practical example, like a repo you could link that just doesn't work for AI?

GPT tools give piss-poor suggestions when working with the Godot game engine. The Godot engine is an open-source project that has matured significantly since GPT tools hit the market. The GPTs don't know what the new Godot features are, and there is a training gap that I'm not sure Open AI and their competitors will ever be able to overcome. Do you work on web applications? I've found that GPT tools get pretty stupid…

Thanks for the Godot example. I experimented with it through Claude Code (I have no prior experience with it). Got a Vampire Survivors-esque game working from scratch with plain shapes representing the game elements like player or enemies in 70 minutes on and off. It included a variety of 5 weapons, enemies moving to the player, player movement, little experience orbs on enemies expiring, a projectile and area of effect damage system, and a levelling up and upgrade system and UI which influenced weapon behaviours.

Godot with AI was definitely a worse experience than usual for me. I did not use the Godot editor. It seems like the development flow for Godot however is based around it. Scenes were generated through a Python script, which was of course written by Claude Code. Personally, I reviewed no line of code during the process.

My findings afterwards are;

1) Code quality was not good. Personally I have a year of experience working with Unity and online the code examples tend to be of incredibly poor quality. My guess is if AI is trained on the online corpus of game development forums, the output should be absolutely terrible. For the field of game development especially AI is tainted with this poor quality. It did indeed not follow modern practices, even after having hooked up a context MCP which provides code examples.

2) It was able to refactor the codebase to modern practices upon instructing it to; I told it to figure out what modern practices were and to apply them; it started making modifications like adding type hints and such. Commonly you would use predefined rules for this with an LLM tool, I did not use any for my experiment. That would be a one-time task after which the AI will prefer your way of working. An example for Godot can be found here: https://github.com/sanjeed5/awesome-cursor-rules-mdc/blob/ma...

3) It was very difficult to debug for Claude Code. The platform seems to require working with a dedicated editor, and the flow for debugging is either through that editor or by launching the game and interacting with it. This flow is not suitable at the moment for out of the box Claude Code or similar tools which need to be able to independently verify that certain functions or features work as expected.

> Do you work on web applications? I've found that GPT tools get pretty stupid once you stop working with HTML/JS.

Not really - I work on developer experience and internal developer platforms. That is 80~90% Python, Go, Bash, Terraform and maybe a 10~20% Typescript with React depending on the project.

Re: Stop selling “unlimited”, when you mean “until we change our minds”

#345
There are real capacity limits here. Supply and demand are serious forces. When you have a top tier product, you can do a lot but at some point so many people come that it overloads capacity. Last week I had 3 Claude code opus windows happily burning over $100 worth of API credits simultaneously documenting an old code base. This was after a senior engineer had spent 2 weeks learning how to have new code interact with it. And they were timing out and/or hitting excessive cap while my regular teams account just returned "too busy".

Claude 4 is good enough that people will pay whatever they ask as long as it's significantly less than the cost of doing it by hand. The loss leaders will need to fade away to manage the demand, now that there is significant value.

Re: Stop selling “unlimited”, when you mean “until we change our minds”

#346
post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> consuming media narratives about why AI is bad That's quite uncharitable. I don't need to use it to make these points. While I might show a lack of perspective, I don't need to do X to reasonably think X can be bad. You can replace X with all sorts of horrible things, I'll let the creativity of the readers fill in the gap. > AI presently has a far lower footprint on the globe than [X] We see the same kind of argume…

It's not intended to be uncharitable - You clearly value many things I do (the world needs less attention-seeking, energy greedy shitty software). I don't know how else one gets information and forms an opinion on the technology except for media consumption or hands-on experience. Note that I count "social media" as media. My proposition is that without hands-on experience, your information is limited to media narrat…

> I don't know how else one gets information and forms an opinion on the technology except for media consumption or hands-on experience.

Okay, I think I got your intent better, thanks for clarifying.

You can add discussion with other people outside software media, or opinion pieces outside media (I would not include personal blogs in "media" for instance, but would not be bothered if someone did), including people who tried and people who didn't. Medias are also not uniform in their views.

But I hear you, grounded perspectives would be a positive.

> That for it to result in good outcomes for humanity, it requires good people to help shape it in its formative years.

I hear you as well, makes perfect sense.

OTOH, it's difficult to engage into something that feels fundamentally wrong or a dead end, and that's what LLMs feel like to me. It would be also frightening: the risk that, as a good person, you help shape a monster.

The only way out I can see is inventing the thing that will make LLMs irrelevant, but also don't have their fatal flaws. That's quite the undertaking though.

We'd not be competing on an equal footing: LLM providers have been doing things I would never have dared even considering: ingesting considerable amount of source materials completely disregarding their licenses, hammering everyone servers, spending a crazy amount of energy, sourcing a crazy amount of (very closed) hardware, burning an insane amount of money even on paid plans. It feels very brutal.

Can an LLM be built avoiding any of this stuff? Because otherwise, I'm simply not interested.

(of course, the discussion has shifted quite a bit! The initial question was if a dev not using the LLMs would remain relevant, but I believe this was addressed at large in other comments already)

Re: Stop selling “unlimited”, when you mean “until we change our minds”

#347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sure that is how many photographers felt about digital cameras and photo editing software when it first came. Now very few professional photographers work without digital cameras and photo editing software (even if it is just to tweak some colors). Yes, you will still have some artists making money with purely analog cameras without any touch up but they are a tiny minority of the photographers getting paid for t…

I'm sure that's how many laundry machine users felt when the tide pod first came out. Now very few laundry doers measure out their detergent by hand.

During the tide pods craze I saw that they were less than 20% of the market. Just a heads up. Most use liquid detergent.

Original posters autotune example was off too - 99% of commercial records use pitch correction. The other 1% are the ones they write stories about "nO AuToTuNe" cuz the reality is its on everything. I mix records. Easy to find autotune errors in live performances on youtube. It's not that they can't sing, the audience has been trained for perfection(they believe).

Re: Stop selling “unlimited”, when you mean “until we change our minds”

#348
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> cognitive augmentation that allows developers to navigate complexity at scales human cognition wasn't designed for I don't think you should use LLMs for something you can't master without. > will find themselves unable to compete I'd wait a bit more before concluding so affirmatively. The AI bubble would very much like us to believe this, but we don't yet know very well the long term effects of using LLMs on code,…

Two masters go head to head. One uses AI tools (wisely - after all, they're a master!), the other refuses to. Which one wins? To your second point -- With as much capital as is going into data center buildout, the increasing availability of local coding LLMs that near the performance of today's closed models, and the continued innovation on both open/closed models, you're going to hang your hat on the possibility tha…

[deleted]

Re: Stop selling “unlimited”, when you mean “until we change our minds”

#349

Earlier quoted context omitted.

RIP Grissom, White and Chaffee. But the loss of their lives also proves a point: that achievement isn't a function of intelligence but of many more factors like people willing to risk and to give their lives to make something important happen in the world. Loss itself drives innovation and resolve. For evidence, look to Gene Kranz: https://wdhb.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/Kranz-Dictum.pdf

In that case, the decision to launch was taken not by the astronauts risking their lives, but by NASA management, against the recommendation of Morton Thiokol's engineers. This was not simply an unfortunate "accident", but an entirely preventable gamble. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rogers_Commission_Report#Flawe... > Loss itself drives innovation and resolve True, but did NASA in 1986 really need to learn this less…

Two different incidents. The parent was talking about Apollo 1, not Challenger.

Re: Stop selling “unlimited”, when you mean “until we change our minds”

#350
post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Which one wins? We don't really know yet, that's my point. There are contradictory studies on the topic. See for instance [1] that sees productivity decrease when AI is used. Other studies show the opposite. We are also seeing the first wave of blog posts from developers abandoning the LLMs. What's more, most people are not masters. This is critically important. If only masters see a productivity increase, others s…

There's a clear difference between "I have used these tools, tested their limits, and have opinions" and "I am consuming media narratives about why AI is bad" AI presently has a far lower footprint on the globe than the meat industry -- The US Beef industry alone far outpaces the impact of AI. As far as "work pillaging" - There is cognitive dissonance in supporting the freedom of information/cultural progress and sim…

> The US Beef industry alone far outpaces the impact of AI.

Beef has the benefit of seeing an end, though. Populations are stabilizing, and people are only ever going to eat so much. As methane has a 12 year life, in a stable environment the methane emissions today simply replace the emissions from 12 years ago. The carbon lifecycle of animals is neutral, so that is immaterial. It is also easy to fix if we really have to go to extremes: Cull all the cattle and in 12 years it is all gone!

Whereas AI, even once stabilized, theoretically has no end to its emissions. Emissions that are essentially permanent, so even if you shut down all AI when you have to take extreme measures, the effects will remain "forever". There is always hope that we'll use technology to avoid that fate, but you know how that usually goes...

Post reply on HN