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Framework Laptop 12 review

arstechnica.com

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Re: Framework Laptop 12 review

#341

Post by moffkalast »

kevthecoder wrote: post #334
moffkalast wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just saw a kickstarter for something like that recently, a laptop built around a CM 5 with even GPIO broken out. Argon 40 something.

Probably this one (not launched yet) https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/argonforty/upton-one-th...

Yep that's the one, I have to say it's kinda tempting on one hand, but on the other the Pi 5 is still about 4x slower than this already slow Framework 12 with a GPU that barely qualifies being called that so using it would be pretty painful I imagine.

Re: Framework Laptop 12 review

#342

Post by dzhiurgis »

nmridul wrote: post #292
dzhiurgis wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would I care when I can get at least 4 years worth of AppleCare from Apple?

Here you can mostly dyi the repair. So you are not stuck waiting for Apple's appointment and repair schedule which would be a week at the minimum that you are grounded. Plus easy upgradeability ..

I don't really want to DIY, I want quicker turnaround from Apple (which generally can pull off same day repairs if you ask).

Re: Framework Laptop 12 review

#343

Post by f1shy »

mmcnl wrote: post #326
f1shy wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn’t NL have a Keyboard like Germany, Span, Italy or France? So you all use Ansi? That is my place in the world!!! Thanks. I will search in that direction.

Yes we all use ANSI. Only difference with US keyboards are Alt Gr key instead of right Alt, and a € sign on the "5" key. I think both are not really dealbreakers.

Thank you! I'm now searching to buy online a laptop and get it delivered!

Re: Framework Laptop 12 review

#344

Post by lillecarl »

pcchristie wrote: post #268
linsomniac wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>in theory, you'd be keeping the same body, while swapping out the mainboard. I love the idea of Framework, but the upgradability seems questionable to me. I base this off my experience with desktops where I've rarely over the decades upgraded more than the hard drive and RAM. When I'm looking at upgrading the motherboard it seems I just end up going all the way and getting a new case/ps/etc at the same time. Maybe t…

The main difference is the chassis is ~ 10% of the cost of a desktop. It's ~ 40% (?) of the cost of a Framework, so rolling it forward (with screen, speakers, mic, keyboard, webcam etc.) saves you a fair bit more value. I haven't checked those %s but just using them notionally.

My case was 100$ and it's housed components worth maybe 4000$ over it's lifetime, I regret not getting one with dust filters now that it's been stickerbombed and has sentimental value.

But it's definitely more percentage value in a laptop with touchpads, wifi, keyboard, battery and display over a case that's just some bent metal and if you're fancy a glass panel.

Re: Framework Laptop 12 review

#345

Post by lillecarl »

paxys wrote: post #227
linsomniac wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>in theory, you'd be keeping the same body, while swapping out the mainboard. I love the idea of Framework, but the upgradability seems questionable to me. I base this off my experience with desktops where I've rarely over the decades upgraded more than the hard drive and RAM. When I'm looking at upgrading the motherboard it seems I just end up going all the way and getting a new case/ps/etc at the same time. Maybe t…

You can't upgrade the hard drive or RAM on modern laptops either.

Never seen a device with soldered storage that is a laptop and isn't an Apple.

And the reason why RAM is soldered is because they need the signal integrity to run "high performance" graphics on it, it's not (just) because the manufacturer hates you. This is why FW desktop has soldered memory too.

LPCAMM is coming, which is an interface with better signal integrity than SODIMM or whatever they're called, I hope it will bring RAM upgradeability back to office machines. I really only need to render videos and a slightly animated WM on my laptop so I don't care for HIGH PERFORMANCE AI IGPU when I have a desktop at home.

Re: Framework Laptop 12 review

#346

Post by 0xTJ »

mmcnl wrote: post #327
0xTJ wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While HP's service guides have been good, even on their non-business models, the actual serviceability isn't great. You have rubber feet that can't be re-applied after removal, and good luck getting replacement parts as an average consumer (I haven't even been able to get a first-party battery for my HP Envy x360). Not every laptop is going to a corporation with an IT department and direct procurement connections. RA…

The consumer laptops are not built for easy repairability. EliteBooks are very servicable, only 4 or 5 captive screws and you can easily access all the internals.

Having specific lines be easily repairable doesn't influence how Framework laptops interact with the rest of the market. It's very much not just businesses (or individuals buying business-line devices) that should be able to repair their laptops, and they're not advertising themselves exclusively to businesses.

Also, my biggest issue with my HP Envy x360 is not getting inside. It's annoying to have to buy new (third-party) replacement feet after removing them (and shouldn't be done by HP regardless), but it's not a big problem. And the service guide is quite good. It's the fact that I haven't been able to buy a new first-party battery, I can't buy a new screen, mainboard, or trackpad if I end up needing one.

Sure I can (and have) upgraded the RAM and SSD, and replaced the battery with a third-party one (well actually two, the first one didn't have some ID chip, and would show a warning screen on every boot). But the RAM and SSD are just upgrades, and batteries are consumables. I can't reasonably repair damaged or failing parts if the screen cracks, if coffee gets spilled in the keyboard, if a port gets damaged. Only 4 parts are listed as available (pen tip, RAM, AC adapter, and Wi-Fi card), and only the AC adapter is in stock.

Re: Framework Laptop 12 review

#347

Post by nucleardog »

moffkalast wrote: post #115
libraryatnight wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been using my framework 13 for a while now and it's been a great laptop - part of what pushed me over was their mission of making devices lives longer, my hope is and was that maybe the vote of confidence they survive long enough to build up to a model the Apple fans here would want or at least not complain about.

How has the build quality stood up so far? My concern with these has always been that laptops do generally get banged up a bit when travelling around, and if half of it is snap fit and designed to detach instead of being all glued together like typically, then it has a higher likelihood of falling apart when you really don't want it to. Might still be worth it if they keep producing spare parts for a decade or more,…

I have a Framework 16 which is probably even easier to deconstruct than the Framework 13. It's been back and forth across the continent a number of times.

It's very firmly put together. The thought had never crossed my mind that I needed to worry about parts coming off of it. E.g., the screen bezel is inside the laptop when it's closed, pretty firmly set inside the top lid so it wouldn't catch on anything anyway, and has some decently strong magnets given it's a tiny piece of light plastic.

And if something happens that _would_ take the bezel off, in all likelihood it would just snap right back into place. Since it's designed to come off, it should come off relatively cleanly rather than breaking where it was glued, snapping off some tiny plastic clips, etc that would render it destroyed.

If anything I'm _less_ delicate with this than other electronics. Not that I want to plan on burning money, but knowing that something as extreme as "I managed to shatter the screen" is a ~$300 part and probably 15 minutes of my time to fix rather than "buy a whole new laptop" definitely takes some of the anxiety away. A new touchpad or keyboard are like $50 and 30 seconds to replace. A destroyed USB-C port is $8 and 15 seconds.

Re: Framework Laptop 12 review

#348

Post by benoau »

MBCook wrote: post #312
benoau wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They don't make the CPU or the hardware. And M1 laptops are what about three years from the vintage list? They'll be e-waste at the end of this decade even while other laptops fail to match it.

But that’s not really the point is it. If PC vendors can’t match some important specs from multiple years ago on an Apple laptop, isn’t that kind of a problem? Sure you can get a faster laptop than an M1. But can you get one that’s faster and silent at all times? You can get a bigger battery. Or screen or whatever. But all those trade off some other desirable quality. Has anyone matched the full package? Speed + size…

The only way Framework is going to match that is if they take charge of the operating system and probably the CPU design too so they can eke out every bit of performance - which is certainly possible these days, a lot of companies are doing exactly that - but I believe it requires billions in investment!

Re: Framework Laptop 12 review

#349

Post by l72 »

dale_huevo wrote: post #35
criddell wrote: post #14

Is it unreasonable to think Framework should be able to make a laptop competitive with the 5 years old MacBook Air M1? I get that Framework focuses on making repairable machines, but does that prevent them from making a fanless, hi dpi, good performing, long battery life machine? I wouldn’t expect parity with an M4 machine, but it doesn’t seem unreasonable to think they should be competitive with the much older M1. I…

Yes. "Repairable" is a bit of a fool's errand. It really hinges on availability of spare parts, supply chain, etc. They will never sell enough of this niche product to nerds to make that a long-term reality. An old MBP is far more repairable because so many were made there will never be a shortage of parts on eBay. While an emphasis on repairability is noble, the false prophet of brick-like pluggable USB modules ain'…

I had a usb dock that surged, destroying the dock and my touchpad. A $25 replacement from framework, and under 5 minutes to swap things out, and I was good as new!

Re: Framework Laptop 12 review

#350

Post by jekwoooooe »

righthand wrote: post #299
jekwoooooe wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure they could but they have an edge like framework has an edge. If you value the idea that you can theoretically repair your laptop one day (which is an assumption that it will break) more than everyday usability and features… then that’s your choice. Outside of breaking a screen I’ve never one had a laptop just “break”. And for anything else well… there’s AppleCare.

Not everyone using a computer can afford Apple products and Apple service repair services. Good for you, but maybe start with your privilege as a difference.

What does this have to do with anything at all
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