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Finland Bans Smartphones in Schools

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Re: Finland Bans Smartphones in Schools

#341

Post by andrepd »

constantcrying wrote: post #111
2muchcoffeeman wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not blaming you. But as intelligent as you may be, you have discounted all the possibilities for the failure of you school or your particular teachers. Because you had a bad time, then the whole system is malicious right? I know a high school teacher with a PhD and has tutored and lectured at the university level. But they are a teacher now. Guess I’ll paint them with the same brush as all teachers.

>then the whole system is malicious right? Where did I say that the intentions were bad? >Because you had a bad time, then the whole system is malicious right? No. In university the expectations were drastically higher. If the goal of the school was to prepare me for university, then it failed at that for everyone . The mismatch can not be attributed to me. >But they are a teacher now. Guess I’ll paint them with the…

> In university the expectations were drastically higher.

Well duh. I don't know where/what you studied, but I did physics and yeah, it was balls-fucking hard some times. I think the vast majority of freshman physics/maths/engineering students experience a similar feeling where there's a huge jump in challenge going from school-level to uni-level.

Whether this means there is a case for narrower, more focused "elite" schools in maths, or in say music, for high-performing students in those areas, is of course an interesting discussion :)

If the goal of the school was to prepare me for university

Well it's not. You studied a narrow subject at university, but during the ~12 years of schooling you studied many other subjects. The goal of schooling is to make you a complete citizen (in an ideal sense, I'm talking :)). Not sure how the system is where you live but where I come from the first 9 years have a fixed curriculum, and it's only during the last 3 years (high school) that you pick subjects in the areas relevant to your university aspirations (or you pick a vocational course).

Re: Finland Bans Smartphones in Schools

#342

Post by stefs »

stefs wrote: post #201
RHSeeger wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My daughter brings her phone to school with her - If he bus doesn't show up, she can call and ask us to come drive her to school - If she wants to go somewhere after school, she can call us and let us know she won't be home at her normal time - If she forgot something at home, she can call and ask us to bring it - etc, etc, etc There's a ton of reasons for her to have her phone on her. Enough so that, when she gets p…

> The law does not entirely ban the use of mobile phones at school, and their use will be permitted in certain situations. But generally, the use of phones *during class time* will be prohibited. so, the finnish don't prohibit that at all.

PS: emphasis mine PPS: and i meant "the finns", not "the finnish"

Re: Finland Bans Smartphones in Schools

#343

Post by doublerabbit »

theshackleford wrote: post #193
doublerabbit wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not at all. If the code is decent and shows effort I have no problem. If it's sloppy it shite code. I really don't have time to care about what my peers think of me. It's work. I don't want to communicate with them outside work. Work is just another mind space that stays at work. I am strict when it comes to code, I expect the same. I want working maintainable code to enable me to do my job. If people dread submittin…

> I don't want to communicate with them outside work. Work isn't a friend zone Neither of these things was suggested or raised so this is quite a bizarre rant to go on. Even if you care about neither of those things, what your peers think of you still matters because you must work with them.

No, they really don't. They submit their code. I submit mine. If they have a problem with mine, I'll fix what they have issues with if they are reasonable, why wouldn't I?

Where I work in enterprise your peers change daily. With my role and importance to the company implementing hacky code puts me at risk and so I will of course push back. The people I knew last months may not even work in the company.

The view of I must be a horrible person comes from the Comment OP being angry at me for having a reasonable standards to an Enterprise standard of code. "It works im done. Next please"

If their code isn't up to scratch I will tell them and reject it. The issue I have is lazy developers who implement hacks and don't actually go and fix the code.

I am being made the bad person from someone's angry hospitality. All I was saying is that lazy developers are lazy developers and that I axe their work because it's sloppy and doesn't deserve to be on show.

Re: Finland Bans Smartphones in Schools

#344

Post by psunavy03 »

hackyhacky wrote: post #306
_bin_ wrote: post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, I think this just looks a little alien from an American perspective because most of our rights are set up as explicit negatives to block the government from legislating them away, more than to prevent Joe or Jane Teacher from taking a phone. "Congress shall pass no law..." I guess the nordics don't have a common-law tradition and so never inhereted the in loco parentis doctrine that allows schools to take subst…

> most of our rights are set up as explicit negatives to block the government from legislating them away, Of course, as we've discovered, those rights don't mean much, when the executive doesn't want to recognize them. So what was the point anyway?

They also don't mean much when state governments just ignore them and never get called to account (and I can point to examples on both sides of the aisle).

Re: Finland Bans Smartphones in Schools

#345

Post by andrepd »

constantcrying wrote: post #147
watwut wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hey, you are the genius who knew it all before learning and got highest possible grades with no effort. Congrats. Overwhelming majority of people is not like that, they do not get highest grades, they do not get into gymnasium without effort, don't pass tests without effort.

Haha, are you serious?

What is this supposed to mean? "Most people need to work to get good grades in school" is a very self-evident statement, is it not?

Re: Finland Bans Smartphones in Schools

#346

Post by thomastraum »

RHSeeger wrote: post #334
thomastraum wrote: post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

THIS is it. even all the above reasons are not actual reasons. None of these are a problem. you job is NOT to bring something to school because she forgot it nor to drive her to school if the bus doesnt show up.

> you job is NOT to bring something to school because she forgot it nor to drive her to school if the bus doesnt show up. No, it's not my job. But it is my job as a parent to make her life easier where it makes sense (when it's not to impactful to my other responsibilities). And dropping off her computer so that she can participate in class does that (and makes her day in school more productive). And picking her up a…

I respect your opinion, I have children and I dont want to tell other parents what to do. please take it as an exploration of a what real necessity is and what the notion of better is in which context.

I fundamentally disagree that making life easy is the right thing.

what I am trying to say is, the feedback loop from a) forgetting something or b) the experience of missing out on something because of aspects of life that are out of ones control is so much better IMO and the phone is just 'convenient'

Of course that doesnt mean I prefer my child to be run over or die instead of protecting her/him or helping her/him

Re: Finland Bans Smartphones in Schools

#347

Post by DiggyJohnson »

bluGill wrote: post #195
probably_wrong wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All of those problems can be solved without smartphones, as evidenced by literally every previous generation dealing with them. If anything, my grumpy self would argue that not having means to contact my parents if I forgot something ensured that I paid more attention the night before to what I had to pack. But I'm open to compromise: let's give children bring dumb phones that can only call and text.

Sure. I remember standing in line at the phone for 10 minutes as a kid waiting for my turn to call my parents when my activity was done. Cell phones are better. Smart phones would mean I could use the time waiting for something. Smart phones when class is in session is a distraction and should be banned. However outside of class they are helpful.

> 10 minutes

We have forgotten that boredom is okay.

Re: Finland Bans Smartphones in Schools

#348

Post by DiggyJohnson »

bluGill wrote: post #223
ecshafer wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All of those reasons can be solved with her using a public phone. My school growing up had a phone in the hallway by the main office for those reasons.

No they cannot. My school had multiple doors that could not see each other - more than once my parents were waiting for me at a different door from the one I was standing at waiting for them. We did find each other, but only after a lot of searching - sometimes we even passed each other as we both switched doors to wait at. Okay, it did work out, but not nearly as well as a simple cell phone. Smart phones add additio…

You are describing a minor inconvenience right?

Re: Finland Bans Smartphones in Schools

#349

Post by graemep »

Nux wrote: post #320
graemep wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> antivaxers, flat earthers Generally people who went to school. > With no mandatory schooling, most kids would be illiterate and ignorant. School is not mandatory in a lot of countries. In the UK education is mandatory but school is not and educating kids out of school leads to much better results in my experience.

Were you home schooled, on what are you basing your statement? I'm not in disagreement, I'm just curious, please elaborate.

> Were you home schooled, on what are you basing your statement?

I was no. My kids were home educated from about eight or nine to 16 (when they did GCSEs and IGCSE - British exams taken at that age). Overall I think they got a better education than I did (and I sent to a school that was one of the top 10 in the UK academically).

The older one is now an adult, will shortly finish a degree in electronic engineering and is working for jaguar Landrover. She thinks she benefited a lot. The younger one is at sixth form college (school for 16 to 18 year olds) as her older sister did, and I can compare them to the typical kid at that stage.

My older daughter puts her interest in engineering very much to home ed - more time with a dad with science and technology interests, and not picking up gender stereotypes from school about male and female jobs (she was the ONLY girl in her A level electronics class).

Other advantages:

1. study at your own pace - more time for something you are finding hard, can go fast through easy stuff without boredom 2. flexibility in how to study (self teaching, tutors, online courses, parental teaching for things I know well). 3. flexibility in what to study: my kids did subjects most schools do not offer. Both did Latin GCSE, and the younger one did astronomy, for example 4. more motivation, self discipline and study skills as a result of the above.= 5. more time for hobbies and interests 6. more time to spend in settings out for school so meeting a wider range of people (pursing 5, but also just meeting up with friends)

Re: Finland Bans Smartphones in Schools

#350

Post by askonomm »

_bin_ wrote: post #303
chithanh wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The keyword here is just . They cannot simply order children to comply, there has to be same legal basis like there has to be for ordering an adult to comply.

Maybe I'm seeing this wrong but a public school is a government institution, right? It seems reasonable, then, that the government could say "no phones in here", just like they can say "no drinks in the courtroom".

Not all schools are government institutions or funded by the government. But it wouldn't matter to your point, because by that logic anyone who owns the building should then be able to make rules about what goes on inside that building, or any organization, etc. Much like how you have basic wardrobe etiquette, you could also have a rule that says no phones in a classroom.

Now me being Estonian, just across the sea from Finland, I was surprised to learn this needed to be a law in the first place since when I went to elementary/primary school smartphones and laptops were not permitted in the classroom. Didn't need a special law for that, it was just the school's rules. You either play ball or you get called into the principals office. This happens enough times and you simply get kicked out of the school.

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