Earlier quoted context omitted.
So I could have no ability to say anything at all, and still have free speech?
Yes. To test this, close the website and go and shout out of your window.
That sounds like an ability to say things.
EU to greenlight Chat Control tomorrow
341–350 of 360 posts
Re: EU to greenlight Chat Control tomorrow
#342Re: EU to greenlight Chat Control tomorrow
#343I already kicked up a shit here in NL together with a few other well connected people (with success) but it's a little frustrating that there's little more to do other than hope that nerds in other EU countries can make a difference.
What would you suggest to citizens from other member states (France in my case) to do to sway representatives against this?
Calling is great. You can also send an email. If they get a barrage of emails, it might help wake them up.
I sent something I composed myself, but this template looks good if you need inspiration.
https://nextcloud.pp-eu.eu/index.php/s/cwyRic7cC5zcfHk?dir=u...
Re: EU to greenlight Chat Control tomorrow
#344Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Shutting down so called Russian-propaganda sites That's a significant disadvantage democracies that embrace freedom of speech have, though. China/Russia/other authoritarian shitholes have a very easy time shaping, blocking or severely limiting information spread from the outside world. Trying to play nice against a side which is cheating and playing dirty isn't exactly a winning strategy...
If one loves democracy, the argument runs, one must crush its enemies by no matter what means. And who are its enemies? It always appears that they are not only those who attack it openly and consciously, but those who ‘objectively’ endanger it by spreading mistaken doctrines. In other words, defending democracy involves destroying all independence of thought. George Orwell https://www.orwellfoundation.com/the-orwell…
> Btw even Nazi radio broadcasting was not blocked during WW2 in GB.
No, they just executed their announcer for treason just for what he said on radio and accepting German citizenship (and it was not even clear he was legally a British subject to begin with...). Also jamming it back then wouldn't have been that easy and worthwhile also the Nazis occasionally allowed POWs to send messages to their families back home.
Btw the scale of censorship and other measures restricting the freedom of speech in Allied states during WW2 (or WW1 for that matter) were was extreme by modern standards.
Re: EU to greenlight Chat Control tomorrow
#345This whole thing stinks. The relentless push, I feel may mean some American contractors are demanding their pound of flesh. https://mullvad.net/en/why-privacy-matters/going-dark They should be checking the bank statements of those on the EU payroll, and who are relentlessly pushing this. Make sure everything is above board.
That’s an incredible article, thanks for sharing! Really recommend others to read this.
Re: EU to greenlight Chat Control tomorrow
#346Earlier quoted context omitted.
Anti-hate speech got you? What were you trying to say exactly? One can go on X right now and spew any hate speech that one wants. How about just political opinions? How quickly we forgot "free speech zones." This is the government actually limiting public speech in the USA. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_speech_zone BTW, I am not for this regulation in any way. I just don't see the connection to hate speech.
Free Speech Absolutism was/is connected with hate speech because sites that hold up such an ideal end up being the landing pad for the very worst people who were banned everywhere else. There aren't enough normal people who vote with their money/time/engagement to reach critical mass on those platforms. And turns out very few people want actually free speech. We're in a forum with strong moderation and the discussion…
I don't usually comment on HN because I don't feel like I can bring much value to the discussion in many cases and I would agree to moderate it even stricter even if my (rare) comments would be removed.
In real life on the other hand I want to be able to say stupid things and even if I might be more sensible to others' "hate speech" I would not want that to be banned.
Re: EU to greenlight Chat Control tomorrow
#347Earlier quoted context omitted.
What do you mean by "punished"? You have the right to say whatever you want just like I have the right to not listen to what you're saying, not to employ you, not buy goods/services from you and to encourage my friends to do the same (we're both exercising our right to the freedom of speech). > but the US constitution guarantees freedom of speech" yeah so does North Korean, argument invalid. Well courts in the US are…
> not to employ you This is the problem because 99% of people are effectively dependent on their employers, and there's huge power imbalance between employers and employees. In Europe there's a specific list of reasons which can result in work contract termination. This means that the employer cannot fire me just because I posted on Facebook "vote for party X for better future". This means that I feel free to post th…
> and there's huge power imbalance between employers and employees
That's the real issue, however fundamentally I don't really see an issue if saying certain things publicly makes you effectively unemployable.
> In Europe there's a specific list of reasons which can result in work contract termination.
It varies by country but I'm not sure it applies to illegal/banned speech? Also in Europe you can be convicted and fined for quoting the Hadith while not being a Muslim* and the ECHR doesn't see a problem with that (which unfortunately proves that "freedom of speech" is just not a thing in Europe).
Germany is putting people in prison (for as long as 5 years) just for their speech (as false and repulsive as it might be. How is that better than making those people "unemployable"? Which probably wouldn't even be the case since there (unfortunately) are still plenty of people who'd hire nazi apologists (both in US and Europe).
*https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E.S._v._Austria_(2018)
> is such a fantastic deal and an example of freedom of speech.
IMHO it really depends on what opinions exactly did you express. Again I don't see how is it any fairer to impose your personal controversial views on your employer (even if indirectly).
Re: EU to greenlight Chat Control tomorrow
#348Do you think that Discord will leave the european union if chatcontrol pass ?
Re: EU to greenlight Chat Control tomorrow
#349Earlier quoted context omitted.
“The free market would fix it” quite spiritually similar to “god will provide” or “prayer solves everything.” Maybe, maybe with an unwieldy amount of time the rubes would all die out as they administer snake oil to themselves and their families, the pyramid schemes all collapse under the weight of their inability to produce the results their funders sought, and the collective, unorganized and ungovernmented multitude…
Poisoning people isn't speech. If I sell you a product that actually gives you cancer and say it doesn't, the crime shouldn't be that I lied, it should be that I gave you cancer.
Okay cool, so when it comes to using oil/gasoline as a fuel source should that be made non-free speech if I sell this despite the fact that there's clear evidence that it causes among other things cancer?
I don't say it doesn't I don't say it does.
And liable isn't a crime? What's then stopping people from calling each other pedophiles which in turn causes them to lose jobs/relationships/etc.
Should Alex Jones have been convicted of liable due to his claims surrounding Sandy hook?
I'm no free speech absolutist, as you'll end up eating your own tail, but I'm a 100% believer in free speech that does not legitimize malicious use (just because you lie about someone doesn't mean you will be prosecuted that if there were to be a law enacted then free speech won't protect said lie), such as no liable, no threat of violence, no willfully scamming/swindling and no abuse of authoritative/alertive speech (as in saying fire in a theater when there is no fire).
Re: EU to greenlight Chat Control tomorrow
#350Earlier quoted context omitted.
Surely there must be some reasonable explanation for why you are still right and correct even though your ideas constantly lose to others without censorship. It can't be that you're just wrong. Progress is relative.
What ideas are you talking about for example?
Racism