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Rust has been forked to the Crab Language

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Re: Rust has been forked to the Crab Language

#341

Post by ebiester »

kevviiinn wrote: post #291
pjlegato wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a direct result of Stallman's uncompromising disinterest in what values people in the broader world actually wanted to engage with -- instead attempting to dictate his own moral views as a petty tyrant -- GNU _as a project_ hasn't been relevant to computing for decades. When was the last time you booted up the Hurd kernel? I would be surprised if more than 10% of HN readers even know what that is. (Stallman actual…

AFAIK the Hurd kernel isn't ready for production because Linux is so solid so it hasn't been focused on

That is true today, but Linux didn’t have that much of a lead. People chose to develop for Linux instead when the future was in doubt, and that was largely due to the pragmatism of Linus.

Re: Rust has been forked to the Crab Language

#342

Post by arp242 »

pjlegato wrote: post #274
toyg wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A wiser and less ego-centric Stallman would have stepped back decades ago. I don't agree. For all his limits, Stallman maintained an ideological purity that is required to firmly signpost one end of the Overton window. Opensource licenses and projects can mix and match rights and regulations, but you will always have an unwatered GPL option, there to remind people of what the original ideal looked like. Compare the…

As a direct result of Stallman's uncompromising disinterest in what values people in the broader world actually wanted to engage with -- instead attempting to dictate his own moral views as a petty tyrant -- GNU _as a project_ hasn't been relevant to computing for decades. When was the last time you booted up the Hurd kernel? I would be surprised if more than 10% of HN readers even know what that is. (Stallman actual…

GNU wants to recreate a 1988 Unix. That's not necessarily a bad thing – I'm an old Unix beardy type myself as well – but it's not really how you stay at the forefront of computing, yeah. Also didn't help Stallman alienated the GNOME and GTK people so they're not longer GNU projects (and they were independent for a long time before that anyway).

There are still some important GNU projects though, GCC, GNU libc, and Grub being the most notable.

Re: Rust has been forked to the Crab Language

#343

Post by meinersbur »

Xenoamorphous wrote: post #259
codeflo wrote: post #35

For anyone critizing this: From the trademark bullshit to the conference drama, it's clear at this point that someone with influence in the Rust foundation is behaving like an asshole and damaging the project. That can happen in open source, see Stallman and others. It's also clear that others at the Rust foundation tolerate this behavior, downplay it, don't understand the impact, don't want to go against a "respecte…

ffmpeg vs libav is one case where I think the hostile fork ended up working well.

libav was the fork [1], and libav is dead now [2,3] (and many developers returned to ffmpeg).

libav was forced to rename their project because Fabrice Bellard, still owner of the trademark and the ffmpeg.org domain, did not hand it over. ffmpeg put in much effort retain compatibility with libav, mostly by merging all their changes wholesale, while libav ignored ffmpeg, including and most crucially, their security fixes [4].

[1] http://blog.pkh.me/p/13-the-ffmpeg-libav-situation.html

[2] https://www.libav.org/

[3] https://www.phoronix.com/news/FFmpeg-Back-In-Debian

[4] https://j00ru.vexillium.org/2014/01/ffmpeg-and-the-tale-of-a...

Re: Rust has been forked to the Crab Language

#344

Post by arp242 »

toyg wrote: post #338
arp242 wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That would be ideal, yes. But there also needs to be a bit of a culture change away from Stallmanism ("we want absolute Software Freedom now and anything even slightly short of that is unethical !) to a more pragmatic attitude and outlook. This starts with simple things like not picking fights with the BSD projects only because they allow non-free software in ports and not alienating many lead developers of the most…

Lol, this has been said over and over basically since GNU existed. "You need to compromise!!!11!!one!". FSF and GNU are not about compromises. If they were, they'd have stuck to the original Unix distributions and all their licensing grey areas. Instead they didn't, and the world is better for it. Why should they change now...?

> Instead they didn't, and the world is better for it. Why should they change now...?

So this is where we fundamentally disagree: I do not think the world is better off with an uncompromising FSF. I think the world and state of Free Software would have been significantly more advanced if they had adopted a more pragmatic attitude. I don't think that's "compromising" per se, but rather accepting that things don't change in a day.

Also consider an alternative universe where the FSF and/or GNU had invested in to a good code hosting platform and a system to setup payments for people developing software instead of the ecosystem rolling from one proprietary platform to another over the last 25 years.

Re: Rust has been forked to the Crab Language

#345

Post by arp242 »

toyg wrote: post #340
arp242 wrote: post #310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Someone who doesn't alienate a significant part of the community would be a good start (which all occurred long before the whole business with the Minsky comments). That he jump-started things or "is right" isn't actually all that important for effective advocacy; if I were to start my reply with "you asshole!" then you're not very likely to listen to what I have to say. To be honest I don't understand how people fai…

"Nobody listens to him" and still the likes of Microsoft now develop predominantly in the open. You don't need to persuade everyone, sometimes it's just enough to witness your truth. Ask christians.

> "Nobody listens to him" and still the likes of Microsoft now develop predominantly in the open.

Stallman had exactly zero influence on that shift.

Re: Rust has been forked to the Crab Language

#346

Post by toyg »

arp242 wrote: post #325
raxxorraxor wrote: post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. The proposition of source being delivered with any software is indeed unrealistic, but not a bad starting point. For software that is funded publically these requirements could be realistic for example. Consumers won't demand it of course, but especially when software goes out of maintenance, it would be a huge help to get the source. Unrealistic with copyright protections, but I see the new gang of quest…

"Source delivered" can mean many different things though. Stallman's position is essentially that the source must be delivered in a way that respects the four freedoms and any compromise on that is "unethical" and not worth pursuing. My position is that we should start with just having access to the source under any terms, no matter how restrictive, and then move from there. > I didn't downvote you Just to clarify: I…

> we should start with just having access to the source under any terms

Lol. Windows source code has been available under severely-restricted terms, officially for academic purposes, for what, 20 years? It didn't do any good.

I've seen these debates for 25 years by now, they are always the same.

Re: Rust has been forked to the Crab Language

#347

Post by tialaramex »

fluoridation wrote: post #294
tialaramex wrote: post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Sadly that's indeed how trademark law works - if you don't make even a token effort at enforcing your rights, they can become common names and effectively be lost. Can they? Give me examples of such trademarks being lost. Do make sure to check your examples. Maybe you heard say that Xerox lost their trademark. Nope, Xerox® is still a registered trademark of Xerox. > That doesn't mean one should rabidly go after eve…

"Lost" meaning that one loses the right to stop others from using the genericized brand, not meaning that the trademark ceases to exist. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_generic_and_genericize...

The best case for the genericization argument in that list might be Lineoleum, but Lineoleum wasn't even a registered trademark. So that's literally the story: Guy invents Lineoleun. Product is popular, other people make the same product under the same name, he's not very happy about that so he goes to court and says hey, that's my trademark. No it isn't, you don't have a trademark.

Re: Rust has been forked to the Crab Language

#348

Post by hxugufjfjf »

jen20 wrote: post #312
hxugufjfjf wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At least with Go you can use "Golang" in search and get reasonable results. With Rust, I often have to write "rust programming language + [what im searching for]" which is really annoying. Not sure if anyone ever dubs Rust to "Rustlang".

The website is literally rust-lang.org.

fair point

Re: Rust has been forked to the Crab Language

#349

Post by hxugufjfjf »

Hamuko wrote: post #225
hxugufjfjf wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its actually not. The most recent drama was caused by the Rust Project, not the Rust Foundation, which are two completely separate entities. This seems to be a common misunderstanding which is being spread around here, including the top comment to this post.

It is. This is not caused by the most recent drama but by the Rust trademark shitshow, which was definitely by the Rust Foundation.

You’re right. I mistakenly thought this was a response to the latest drama show.

Re: Rust has been forked to the Crab Language

#350

Post by MaKey »

mschuster91 wrote: post #331
detourdog wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I read about codes of conduct like this I worry about humnan relations. Does remote work cause the need for CoC? The over prescription of interactions seem like sci-fi to me. I haven’t worked in an office since the last millennium.

> Does remote work cause the need for CoC? No, CoCs became a trend way before covid made remote work possible for the masses. They initially were demanded by project members after high-profile scandals of some kind, usually racist or otherwise discriminatory bullshit, sexual assault on conferences or bullying (Linus Torvalds for example used to be infamous for his language), and then other projects (or their members)…

I dislike CoCs because they aren't what they claim to be: Instruments to protect people. They are tools of power, ready to be used when needed to bully or oust someone. I therefore really don't understand the broad acceptance or even call for Code of Conducts.
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