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People who die by suicide want to stop suffering, not to stop living

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Re: People who die by suicide want to stop suffering, not to stop living

#341

Post by ChrisMarshallNY »

cat_plus_plus wrote: post #326
s1artibartfast wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the point is that the critical differences are on the inside, not on the outside. People can go through worse experiences on the outside and recover and overcome. This points to the somewhat obvious reality that how people handle and respond to their environmental conditions is a critical factor in outcomes. Sometimes you have to fix the internal root of feelings, emotions, and suffering. You can believe the…

Sure, it's possible for someone who went to war and ended up killing a family of civilians to recover, overcome and lead happy and fulfilled lives henceforth. Does it mean that another soldier struggling with constant guilt and nightmares is defective and in the need of fixing? Our justice system imposes death penalty for murder. What if someone is truly convinced, on rational bases, that they have committed a murder…

> Or that efforts to build these up at their age are likely to be successful in today's society?

I've seen that happen -literally- hundreds, if not thousands, of times.

It's usually difficult. Like, really difficult, but sometimes, it's well worth the effort. We can often help each other through the rough bits.

I've known a few folks that have done pretty awful things (not getting into detail), and have recovered. Many, work hard to help others to recover.

Love, charity, empathy, and generosity are very powerful.

There was a book written by Richard Adams (Watership Down), called Shardik[0]. It's about redemption. Sort of like the Ashoka myth[1]. Not a unique trope.

It's never too late to recover. In many cases, we may not climb "as high" as we once were, but are much happier. In other cases, it's the opposite.

I know a chap that wanted to put the park bench he slept on, in the garden of his mansion. He couldn't find it, though, as the city had replaced them, by that time.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shardik

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashoka

Re: People who die by suicide want to stop suffering, not to stop living

#342

Post by twelve40 »

s1artibartfast wrote: post #318
harimau777 wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they have a spouse and kids, then perhaps they are simply better off than someone who is wealthy but alone.

yeah, I think that is a big part of it. Or people who have friends, social groups, ect. It can also have to do with what you focus your attention and spend your time on. Maybe watching the 40+ hours of TV a week that average Americans do doesn't actually make people happier, and sitting around a coffee shop and playing games (a cheap and common past time in some poor countries), is better for mental health.

maybe. I tried to play board games with my boys many times, but even something as simple and potentially enjoyable as Monopoly or cards quickly turns our warm relationship into a nasty pissing match. We actually turned to movies and shows for that reason (or more collaborative types of games but that's harder to come by)

Re: People who die by suicide want to stop suffering, not to stop living

#343

Post by rrgok »

argiopetech wrote: post #283
sgjohnson wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you've done it right, by 40 you have children. It’s also perfectly okay to not have children.

It's a valid life choice, of course, and you're free to make it. I'd not call it "perfect", though (and neither is choosing to have kids). It's all a matter of which trade-offs you prefer. I like children, desire to pass my genes to the future, value the ability to raise my children to have an impact on the world somewhat in line with my perception of it (commensurate on their natural predilection to agree with me an…

I'm sorry, maybe other people said the same thing. I didn't read the whole thread yet. I'm gonna pick you and the line "desire to pass my genes to the future". I'm gonna ask you some genuine questions about it, so please if you can I would appreciate your point of view.

What is this desire, how does it feel? I've never felt it.

Is it a thought process or do you feel it in your body? (like hunger, sexual attraction...).

Do you feel pain in your body (chest pain, knot in the throat..) if you think you cannot fulfill that desire?

How do you feel if you think about the fact that when you are dead, it just doesn't matter if you passed your gene or not? Isn't that desire just a rationalization/mental process vanishing in oblivion?

Where does that desire goes if you scale-up the total human species life-span? Would you feel happy that you will have grand-grand-grand children that you will never meet?

I've never felt the desire to pass my genes to anybody. I have sexual desire, does that mean I want to pass my genes? But I feel like, sexual desire is like taking a piss: I just release some build-up in my body. I cannot rationalize my peeing in: I have to pee, because that ensure my survival hence the succession of me gene. I feel the same of orgasm. It feels that thought process is forced and conditioned by society.

Re: People who die by suicide want to stop suffering, not to stop living

#344

Post by s1artibartfast »

cat_plus_plus wrote: post #326
s1artibartfast wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the point is that the critical differences are on the inside, not on the outside. People can go through worse experiences on the outside and recover and overcome. This points to the somewhat obvious reality that how people handle and respond to their environmental conditions is a critical factor in outcomes. Sometimes you have to fix the internal root of feelings, emotions, and suffering. You can believe the…

Sure, it's possible for someone who went to war and ended up killing a family of civilians to recover, overcome and lead happy and fulfilled lives henceforth. Does it mean that another soldier struggling with constant guilt and nightmares is defective and in the need of fixing? Our justice system imposes death penalty for murder. What if someone is truly convinced, on rational bases, that they have committed a murder…

My point is pretty simple. It is that the critical differences are on the inside, not on the outside.

I wasn't taking a position on what people should do with this information, but I think that understanding the fact is important if you want to change anything, or simply understand how the world works.

In the context of depression, I think it is up to the individual if they want to change. In your example, the relevant question is if the lonely 50 year old wants to change. As long as they aren't hurting me, I am fine with them choosing either option. What, if anything, I am willing to do the help, would depend on if or how much I care for the individual.

What do you think about your questions? It seems like you have on opinion you aren't stating.

Re: People who die by suicide want to stop suffering, not to stop living

#345

Post by benj111 »

effingwewt wrote: post #106

Crazy this showed up today. I do this 'existential calculus' quite often. I also sometimes wonder what the point is when it just gets worse every year. My therapist told me it's because I'm a survivor , it's what I do . But what's the point of surviving? At what point do I get to live , much less be happy? She pointed out it would be throwing away all my battle scars, all the effort I'd put in to get this far. Just t…

Do you count yourself as suicidal? This rings true to me, I wouldn't describe myself as suicidal though.

Re: People who die by suicide want to stop suffering, not to stop living

#346

Post by twelve40 »

s1artibartfast wrote: post #288
Der_Einzige wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mental illness and mental issues are systemically underdiagnoaed in the third world. I do not believe for a single second that third worlders have better mental health than first worlders. The average third worlders has seen ultra traumatic experiences that simply do not happen to the average first worlder.

I do think that third worlders have better mental health than first worlders with respect to depression. Different people respond in wildly different ways to hardship and trauma. The difference in outcome between two people is internal, not circumstance. It is impossible that it could be otherwise when you some people have experienced the worst the world has to offer and are relatively happy, while some others have e…

Well the first group you mentioned is borderline abused so of course they would be miserable. The second group is interesting.

> enjoy simple pleasures. Equip them with cognitive tools to deal with the challenges of life and disappointment in healthy ways

is this really fully teachable? Is it something that truly can be trained or it depends on a very complicated number of external and internal factors, including genetics?

as far as this part: > teach them to have low expectations

Sounds kind of simplistic to say that, but there is always this worry that having low expectations leads to McDonald's, where you may realize that no you actually expected much more out of life, but by that point it's kind of too late and pretty hard to dig yourself out.

Re: People who die by suicide want to stop suffering, not to stop living

#347

Post by badpun »

martindbp wrote: post #238
stocknoob wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You probably didn’t mean it this way, but that reasoning emphasizes bringing beings into this world to avoid your own bad emotions, and not so they can experience their own good ones.

Giving kids a happy childhood and setting them up for happiness and contentment is of course implied. Either way, I think the vast majority of people who are alive want to remain alive, so I never understood the sentiment that it's selfish to bring someone into the world. It's only selfish if you benefit while someone else suffers. Bringing kids into the world is a win-win, at least in the developed world where birth…

> Either way, I think the vast majority of people who are alive want to remain alive, so I never understood the sentiment that it's selfish to bring someone into the world.

It's not "remaining". If you had decided to not have kids, the kids wouldn't be there in the first place, so they wouldn't (couldn't) feel any regret about.

Re: People who die by suicide want to stop suffering, not to stop living

#348

Post by s1artibartfast »

twelve40 wrote: post #342
s1artibartfast wrote: post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

yeah, I think that is a big part of it. Or people who have friends, social groups, ect. It can also have to do with what you focus your attention and spend your time on. Maybe watching the 40+ hours of TV a week that average Americans do doesn't actually make people happier, and sitting around a coffee shop and playing games (a cheap and common past time in some poor countries), is better for mental health.

maybe. I tried to play board games with my boys many times, but even something as simple and potentially enjoyable as Monopoly or cards quickly turns our warm relationship into a nasty pissing match. We actually turned to movies and shows for that reason (or more collaborative types of games but that's harder to come by)

I don't know you or your family so I would never comment on whether I think your choices are healthy or not.

My point was more General in that people can make poor choices for themselves that leave them unfulfilled and worse off.

Re: People who die by suicide want to stop suffering, not to stop living

#349

Post by rrgok »

It is amazing how everyone arguments about suicide is trying to rationalize in one way or he the other the cause of suicide: what led to it? why? Is right? Honestly: who cares?

My stance is this: there need not to be any reason to die other than wanting it.

I've never asked for this life. So let me go, without much fuss, when I want to go. I don't need to motivate my decision, nor I need find meaning for myself to end it. Whether it is to escape pain or happiness it doesn't matter. Maybe I'm happy about the life I lived up until now, and I'm happy to go. It is nobody's concern but mine. And please, make laws and facilities to make it happen painlessly and reliably for all people who are able to decide it for the themselves at whatever age they wish to go.

Re: People who die by suicide want to stop suffering, not to stop living

#350

Post by badpun »

Name_Chawps wrote: post #138
Wronnay wrote: post #47

"Why hasn’t the number of deaths by suicide decreased?" That housing and groceries is getting more and more expensive certainly doesn't help with that... Of course, not so many people in this world suffer anymore from hunger but in the last years additional problems came up. I know some older people who think that Depression is just a excuse for not wanting to work but these older people had it easier to build or buy…

You truly think housing and food have anything to do with it? We live in the richest society in history, and also the most suicidal. Why don't people living in true poverty around the world feel depressed and kill themselves like we do? Why do we kill ourselves? It's because we have no communities anymore. Many of us are alone. Some call it a loneliness epidemic. And we've replaced community with social media. Our so…

> We live in the richest society in history, and also the most suicidal.

Actually, the US is not even in top 30 of countries with most suicides per capita. And of course, it's probably better than most at actually keeping records, which means that it should be even lower down the list.

See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_r...

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