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We could have universal Covid vaccines soon

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Re: We could have universal Covid vaccines soon

#341

Post by saltminer »

lifeplusplus wrote: post #209
saltminer wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These are not mutually exclusive, reducing car dependency requires massive investment in public transit.

That's my point, if you had better transportation system it'd reduce car dependency, but you can't create economically viable public transportation system for suburbs, which were designed to maximize roads. Not be pessimistic, but it'd take efforts along the line of fighting a new world war to fix this. People who live in suburbs suffer with a form of stockholm syndrome and really thing they are living the best life.…

I'm well aware of that (and have written at length about that on this site in the past). Your comment just seemed like it was saying "you can either reduce car dependency OR have good public transit, not both," which was probably a misreading on my part.

Re: We could have universal Covid vaccines soon

#342

Post by wizofaus »

internet_user wrote: post #340
wizofaus wrote: post #339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok so one country has chosen, for whatever reason, not to administer Moderna to men under 30, presumably on the basis that they feel other alternatives are safer (with an explicit note that the guideline is a temporary precautionary measure). That's hardly proof that vaccines are harmful. All medical treatment carries risk. But the risk of refusing it vastly outweighs that. PS. I still don't see anything on the NHS s…

>Ok so one country has chosen FALSE. 20+ countries. You apparently simply refuse to follow the science from credible authorities. >But the risk of refusing it vastly outweighs that. FALSE. Again, why are you refusing to follow the science? UK's JCVI which is the official scientific body advising the UK govt, and staffed by internationally renowned immunologists and infectious disease specialists, recommended against…

Again, absolutely none of that demonstrates vaccines being harmful, only that certain institutions have taken a particular position out of an abundance of caution. Elsewhere in the world literally billions of people in all age groups have received vaccines of all types. If significant numbers were dying or suffering severe long term side effects from said vaccines, we'd know.

Re: We could have universal Covid vaccines soon

#343

Post by randomhodler84 »

xyzzyz wrote: post #333
t-3 wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the vaccine isn't stopping you from getting sick now, why would it stop you from getting sick if more people took it? Does not compute.

Were you not getting sick before Covid? Lucky you, I got colds a couple times a year, even more often after my kids started attending school. Covid is just another cold for me, why should I care?

No not really. And I am childfree forever so I don’t have to put up with the little pestilence beasts and their Petri dish school crud. Very lucky!

Some occasional subway crud but when you catch COVID over and over again you lose weeks of your life. Also Because colds don’t cause long term damage, blood clots, etc.

This isn’t another cold. It could be mild, or you could wind up with complications from blood clots and inflammation for the next year, more…

That losing your taste? That’s brain damage, buster. Yeah just a cold…

Re: We could have universal Covid vaccines soon

#344

Post by internet_user »

wizofaus wrote: post #342
internet_user wrote: post #340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Ok so one country has chosen FALSE. 20+ countries. You apparently simply refuse to follow the science from credible authorities. >But the risk of refusing it vastly outweighs that. FALSE. Again, why are you refusing to follow the science? UK's JCVI which is the official scientific body advising the UK govt, and staffed by internationally renowned immunologists and infectious disease specialists, recommended against…

Again, absolutely none of that demonstrates vaccines being harmful, only that certain institutions have taken a particular position out of an abundance of caution. Elsewhere in the world literally billions of people in all age groups have received vaccines of all types. If significant numbers were dying or suffering severe long term side effects from said vaccines, we'd know.

FALSE. We do know.

That's why certain vaccines are NOT given to certain populations. That's precisely why JCVI declined to recommend, it was based on RISK vs benefit considerations.

Because we know. In an emergency, in a global pandemic, a recommendation AGAINST universal vaccination isn't taken lightly, and you seem to imply you know better than JCVI?

lol.

Re: We could have universal Covid vaccines soon

#345

Post by openfuture »

MrMan wrote: post #245
openfuture wrote: post #16

Lol nobody touching this discussion with a however-long-you-can-think-of pole. At least not anymore. My contribution: I think we have been destroying trust systematically for so long that people are losing their sanity. Finally it is time to rethink our foundations and stop coercing. Currently there are various things that take trust for granted and they will need to become a great deal more persuasive if they want t…

social media is the root of the problem. that is what destroys trust, not "science." we will only figure this out collectively after more genocides

I'm claiming science used to be more decentralized and that it is less so now.

"What destroys trust?" is an abstract question, social media is a factor but not the only one.

Re: We could have universal Covid vaccines soon

#346

Post by internet_user »

jameshart wrote: post #267
internet_user wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>which did them no harm whatsoever Astrazeneca was suspended in eighteen countries across three continents. Nordic countries pulled Moderna. "no harm"? really?

Institutions changing advice and reacting with an abundance of caution to protect public health causes you to lower your trust in health regulatory agencies? What would you need them to do to increase trust?

Get politics out of medicine? I'm not holding my breath.

Re: We could have universal Covid vaccines soon

#347

Post by wizofaus »

internet_user wrote: post #344
wizofaus wrote: post #342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again, absolutely none of that demonstrates vaccines being harmful, only that certain institutions have taken a particular position out of an abundance of caution. Elsewhere in the world literally billions of people in all age groups have received vaccines of all types. If significant numbers were dying or suffering severe long term side effects from said vaccines, we'd know.

FALSE. We do know. That's why certain vaccines are NOT given to certain populations. That's precisely why JCVI declined to recommend, it was based on RISK vs benefit considerations. Because we know . In an emergency, in a global pandemic, a recommendation AGAINST universal vaccination isn't taken lightly, and you seem to imply you know better than JCVI? lol.

Where did I say I was recommending universal vaccination?

The benefit-to-risk ratio may well be quite low for particular vaccines with particular age groups. Again, that's not the same as saying particular vaccines are "harmful". By any reasonable definition all the vaccines we have are extremely safe, and for anyone with a typical chance of contracting COVID and having it develop into a serious illness, I can't see why you wouldn't choose any of them.

Re: We could have universal Covid vaccines soon

#349

Post by internet_user »

SideburnsOfDoom wrote: post #295
internet_user wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We've had two pandemics since the typhus/flu pandemics of 1920s. 1. 1968 flu pandemic. 2. 1957 flu pandemic

That's nice, but doesn't at all refute the parent's point that the current global pandemic (which worse than those, if a quick google is anything to go by) can and should cause changes to public health and epidemiology.

Irrelevant.

a plainly false statement was made: "it's the only truly global pandemic in a century", your goalposts movements notwithstanding.

Lack of knowledge around basic facts of the field (public health) is a clear and immediate disqualification from any further consideration.

Do you really make suggestions on changes to public heath and epidemiology based on "a quick google"?

Best of luck to you.

Re: We could have universal Covid vaccines soon

#350

Post by SideburnsOfDoom »

internet_user wrote: post #349
SideburnsOfDoom wrote: post #295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's nice, but doesn't at all refute the parent's point that the current global pandemic (which worse than those, if a quick google is anything to go by) can and should cause changes to public health and epidemiology.

Irrelevant. a plainly false statement was made: "it's the only truly global pandemic in a century", your goalposts movements notwithstanding. Lack of knowledge around basic facts of the field (public health) is a clear and immediate disqualification from any further consideration. Do you really make suggestions on changes to public heath and epidemiology based on "a quick google"? Best of luck to you.

> Do you really make suggestions on changes to public heath and epidemiology based on "a quick google"?

This is nonsensical ranting. The idea that "There can and should be changes to public health and epidemiology" is not the same as "making suggestions personally", do not conflate them. For the former, all that you need to know is if others have found areas for improvement, and clearly they have (1), so your statement has no merit whatsoever.

The "a quick google" part only applies to the severity of previous pandemics, do not apply it to the other parts. Or rather, lets hear your expert wisdom on that subject - was the severity the same as COVID-19 then?

If you want fixed goalposts, then the one thing to answer is: do you deny that the current pandemic "can and should cause changes to public health and epidemiology" ?

1) https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/04/health/239-experts-with-o...

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-022-00925-7

https://www.wired.com/story/the-teeny-tiny-scientific-screwu...

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