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Ford CEO says EVs will be sold 100% online with nonnegotiable price

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Re: Ford CEO says EVs will be sold 100% online with nonnegotiable price

#341
post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like any repair at the dealership costs at least 50% more than if you go to another establishment. Does that ring true to anyone else?

> I feel like any repair at the dealership costs at least 50% more than if you go to another establishment. It’s entirely dependent on the market and region. Sometimes it is cheaper to go to the dealer depending on make and model. It also depends on where you live and the availability of mechanics and parts.

There’s also certain things that are cheaper at a dealership. My father is a mechanic and still brings his truck to the dealership for oil changes because they will change the oil for literally less than his shop can buy the oil for.

Re: Ford CEO says EVs will be sold 100% online with nonnegotiable price

#342
post #157
post #82

This article takes an off-the-cuff comment from the CEO of Ford and reads too much into it IMO. He wasn’t saying dealerships are going away; he was actually saying the opposite. The point he was making was that Ford is going to adopt some of Tesla’s practices while using the dealership network to compete with them. Here’s the quote with more context: “I believe for retail, we have to -- it's kind of like what happene…

Selling online without negotiated price is a big change. That should make the dealerships really uncomfortable in the long run… he's kind of saying "oh the dealerships could rent out Mustangs" but is that actually realistic?

[deleted]

Re: Ford CEO says EVs will be sold 100% online with nonnegotiable price

#343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think your mistake here is to look at dealers simply as sales outlets. Dealers would deny that. You sell a car once, but you work on it multiple times throughout its life. IMO the problem with comparing to other retail channels is that most things we buy aren't expensive enough to warrant the same level of upkeep as a $30,000 car. Tesla has made fixed-price online sales work so far, but notice that they're scrambli…

Before recent markups because of parts shortages, dealers mostly made almost nothing on new cars. Even now I'd assume most of their money comes from service and used car sales.

Mostly true in terms of margins, at least if you consider finance and insurance separately from vehicle sales (as all dealerships do).

Nevertheless, new vehicle sales including F&I is a non-negligible factor in most dealerships' bottom line, and new vehicle sales can also be a significant driver of service volume (both organically and as a result of loyalty incentives).

You're also correct in assuming COVID has been good for new vehicle sales profitability.

Here are the per-segment breakdowns reported by the three largest dealership groups in the US, before and after COVID:

1. AutoNation (AN)

2019 Rv: 52.3% New, 25.6% Used, 16.7% S&P, 4.8% F&I, 0.6% Other

2019 GP: 14.3% New, 10.4% Used, 46.1% S&P, 29.0% F&I

2021 Rv: 46.7% New, 33.4% Used, 14.3% S&P, 5.4% F&I, 0.2% Other

2021 GP: 24.3% New, 13.9% Used, 33.8% S&P, 28.0% F&I

2. Penske Automotive (PAG) (excluding non-retail auto dealership businesses)

2019 Rv: 45% New, 35% Used, 6% Fleet, 11% S&P, 3% F&I

2019 GP: 23% New, 12% Used, 1% Fleet, 43% S&P, 21% F&I

2021 Rv: 44% New, 38% Used, 5% Fleet, 10% S&P, 3% F&I

2021 GP: 27% New, 17% Used, 2% Fleet, 34% S&P, 20% F&I

3. Sonic Automotive (SAH)

2019 Rv: 47.0% New, 35.0% Used, 13.0% S&P, 5.0% F&I and Other

2019 GP: 15.0% New, 10.0% Used, 44.0% S&P, 31.0% F&I and Other

2021 Rv: 41.3% New, 39.3% Used, 11.3% S&P, 8.1% F&I and Other

2021 GP: 24.1% New, 6.9% Used, 35.2% S&P, 33.8% F&I and Other

(Rv = revenue as percentage of total, GP = gross profit as percentage of total, New, Used, Fleet = vehicle sales, S&P = Service and Parts, F&I = Finance and Insurance)

(source: SEC filings)

N.B.: Gross profit may be a misleading figure in this comparison, as it excludes major expenses (notably, salaries and commissions for non-administrative staff) directly attributable to particular business segments. Alas, I'm lazy, and these are the only per-segment percentages immediately available in all dealership 10-Ks.

With all that said, I imagine many, possibly most, dealerships would remain comfortably profitable even if net (non-F&I!) profit on new vehicle sales were zero.

Finally, note that fixed vehicle pricing is not exactly a new idea: GM famously introduced the Saturn marque with a similar tactic. And as with this older example, I assume Ford isn't planning to mandate fixed pricing on financing, insurance, trade-in allowances, third-party extended warranties, dealership-installed options, or anything else beyond the selling price of the vehicle itself and possibly certain minor fees related to the sale.

Re: Ford CEO says EVs will be sold 100% online with nonnegotiable price

#344
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a big purchase, so you'd want to at least test it out in person?

No dealerships doesn't mean no test drives. Tesla offers them today.

It has meant no test drives in practice. I was shocked when I tried to test drive a Ford Mach-E that no dealership within a 100 mile radius had any inventory on hand -- when I called individual dealerships to ask, they said not only was the entire inventory already promised to individual customers and the only way you could test drive was if someone bailed on their order. I got a few emails that inventory had popped up, by the time I called (even within a few hours!) the vehicle had already sold. I'm genuinely shocked that consumers are buying first production run vehicles entirely online without a test drive.

Re: Ford CEO says EVs will be sold 100% online with nonnegotiable price

#345
post #55
post #47

I imagine the +$20k "market adjustment" markups on the F-150 lightning (and other EV's and hybrids) [0] by dealerships probably factored into this decision. [0]: https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2022/02/12/ford-gm-d...

It 100% factored into my decision to cancel my pre-order for a Lightning. The dealer said to me via email in December 2021: The latest communication is that order banks will open in January. Ford will be sending invitations to build / order in waves as to keep up with the demand. The invitations will be prioritized based on reservation time stamps. Your reservation is number 138 at our location. I have no way to trac…

Those idiots did the same thing with the Focus RS. It was basically a hotrodded mass produced econobox but the dealerships treated it like a rare Lamborghini. I'm convinced it's why that car died so quickly: demand didn't match dealership greed so they just sat on the lot.

Re: Ford CEO says EVs will be sold 100% online with nonnegotiable price

#346
post #47

I imagine the +$20k "market adjustment" markups on the F-150 lightning (and other EV's and hybrids) [0] by dealerships probably factored into this decision. [0]: https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2022/02/12/ford-gm-d...

This happened to me trying to buy a RAV-4 Prime 1 year ago (advertised a $40k car, they "adjusted" the price to $60k via a bait and switch). So you know what I did? I literally went online the day they told me about their adjustment, and reserved a Model Y. My only concern is where all the scumbags are going to end up if car dealerships cease being a thing.

Haha, I did the same thing. Screw every single Toyota salesperson in the state of Oregon.

Re: Ford CEO says EVs will be sold 100% online with nonnegotiable price

#348
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ford is already ahead of Tesla in EV Trucks

Well tesla has seemed to trying shooting themselves in the foot with their truck rollout. Naming it "cyber truck" then making it look like a bad hot wheels, giving it a small bed with angled sided making it badly shaped for carrying many loads (like a pickups bed is meant for), using new manufacturing technique for its body which results in problems that slow production, bragging about it being indestructible then br…

> giving it a small bed with angled sided making it badly shaped for carrying many loads

I genuinely doubt the average Cybertruck customer is planning on using for hauling anything more than kids and groceries.

Re: Ford CEO says EVs will be sold 100% online with nonnegotiable price

#349

In many other parts of the world, even North America, the MSRP is the price of the car. There is no negotiating (at least, not upwards, and definitely not usually). I don't understand why this is newsworthy? I bought a non-EV in the last decade by putting the order together online on the manufacturer's national website, then processing it through a dealership. Buying a car in the US was so unnecessarily stupid becaus…

If you haven't bought a car in the last year or so then you're out of the loop. Stock is low and prices are above MSRP pretty much across the board. For especially in demand cars like the Lighting or Toyota RAV4 Prime the "dealership markup" can be 50% more than MSRP or more.

Re: Ford CEO says EVs will be sold 100% online with nonnegotiable price

#350

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's all in the perceptions. Pretty much everything made in the last 30yr lasts as long as you're willing to keep doing the normal scheduled maintenance and keep feeding it wear parts. The average Toyota buyer is a lot more willing and financially capable of doing that than the kind of person who rolls negative equity on an Altima into a Dodge Journey. I used to be responsible for a fleet of delivery vans. I would ha…

You’re talking about the difference between commercial and commuter use. We both know that they are not the same at all, and have different manufacturing environments, parts, builds, and specs. Clearly, this discussion is not about commercial vehicles. Go look at the list of most reliable cars. Toyota and Honda are always listed as number one and two. Ford isn’t ever discussed as "reliable". I think this goes way bey…

Wow, I was not expecting Ford transit vans to be above-average reliable, but a bit of searching around shows that indeed they are. Not as reliable as a Mercedes Sprinter, but I wonder if the operating costs are lower over the years (they cost roughly the same, which also surprised me) than the Mercedes.
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