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When I tell the Windows Terminal team something is simple, I am "misguided"

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Re: When I tell the Windows Terminal team something is simple, I am "misguided"

#341

Post by thebean11 »

rob74 wrote: post #214
chevill wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>This is a good exhibit of an almost perfect apology. If you've been okay hearing "sorry" your entire life then I am afraid you've been lied to more often than not. If you specifically focus insults on an individual and call into question their competence and then make a vague statement that avoids actually saying you did something wrong ("We turned inwards), you have failed to do #1, which is arguably the most impor…

...except that they literally write "we were wrong" - so I'm not sure how you can interpret that as "avoiding to actually state they did something wrong"?

They admitted to being wrong about the technical solution to this problem, but not their mistreatment of community members. Huge difference.

Re: When I tell the Windows Terminal team something is simple, I am "misguided"

#342

Post by pavlov »

GartzenDeHaes wrote: post #83
pavlov wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s not that Microsoft became less evil, but the Overton window of what’s acceptable for tech companies has been constantly translating towards evil. In 1977 Bill Gates wrote a public letter saying that software piracy is wrong and developers should get paid; this was highly controversial at the time and launched the hackers-vs-MSFT dichotomy. A lot of people sincerely believed it’s evil to use copyright law to prev…

| software piracy is wrong and developers should get paid ... while at the same time stealing everything they could find. One of the most obvious examples was Bill Crowther's ADVENTURE, which Microsoft sold for multiple platforms. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Adventure

Yeah, it's evil to take advantage of a copyright regime that authors like Crowther didn't really consider when releasing their code.

But it's more of a contract dispute between two parties. The scope is very narrow compared to some of the hair-raising practices of Google, Meta, Uber, Elon Musk, cryptocurrency exchanges, and other contemporary tech barons who reach billions of people.

Re: When I tell the Windows Terminal team something is simple, I am "misguided"

#343

Post by twobitshifter »

buttercraft wrote: post #295
twobitshifter wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If we’re being critical it’s missing the “we apologize” and skips to “hope you accept our apology” and then jumps down a “we’re only human” escape hatch.

How is “we hope you accept our apology” not an apology?

Try replacing apology with other words.

Its like an email that says “attached”, but there’s no attachment.

Re: When I tell the Windows Terminal team something is simple, I am "misguided"

#344

Post by ddalex »

NikolaNovak wrote: post #300
ddalex wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But there is no "We apologize" either. There is a "we hope you (the community) accept the apology" - which apology ?! there wasn't one to begin with, because there is no "I/We apologize/are sorry" in the first place. And the apology should go to the individual harmed, not to the "community"

I find the format of "I've done wrong; please accept my apology" to be common and sufficient; clearly we have different expectations though -- or they are getting unanticipated amount of pedantic and semantic scrutiny (which in turn will eliminate posts like this, we'll get more corpo-santized-PR, but somehow I don't think that'll make people happy either :).

But this is not direct speech that they use - they use indirect speech referring to "the community" and "our" apology, trying to avoid associating personally with either the problem or the apology.

Then they come out and blame Casey for "not accepting the apology".

So in fact if they can't own the mistake, issue a direct apology, and act like adults, perhaps it's better to let the corpo PR speak in bland tones.

EDIT: the GP of this thread edited their post:

> Casey, I'm sorry. We made a mistake. I made a mistake!

Now, this is an apology.

Re: When I tell the Windows Terminal team something is simple, I am "misguided"

#345

Post by hitekker »

thaway2839 wrote: post #280
lhecker wrote: post #139

Hi! I'm the person who wrote that blog post. If you have any questions whatsoever, please let me know! English is not my native language and "The solution is trivial" was meant sarcastic. The solution isn't trivial at all, nor is it complete, because solving the corner cases is complex. I'd also like to mention ahead of time that DirectWrite/Direct2D is very fast at drawing western (Latin) text without coloring (>200…

Removing a credit or a reference is probably the worst way to add succintness to an article. It's literally saying "the contributions of people whose work I based my work on is less important than the least useful sentence in describing my work".

Yeah, Leonard inadvertently gave away the game with that comment. Removing credit from a blogpost because you want it to be "succinct" is not justifiable. I think he's trying hard to pretend he didn't know any better; that excuse seems increasingly thin given the developments of this thread.

He just didn't care about other people.

Edit: it looks like Dustin from the same team at Microsoft shares the same hostility https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31284857

Re: When I tell the Windows Terminal team something is simple, I am "misguided"

#346

Post by lawl »

bena wrote: post #210
QuikAccount wrote: post #79

Anyone who knows anything about Casey Muratori knows that nice and humble are not usually words associated with him. That is not to say the devs he is calling out are in the right. Frankly, I just see a bunch of combative assholes arguing with each other.

Yeah, DHowett's and LHeckler's responses were kind of dickish, but Casey's own words, tone, and attitude aren't doing him any favors either. Casey happens to be right on the technical issue in this case and people are just glossing over all the ways in which he was also wrong. Now, personally, I believe it was the WT Team's responsibility to let it go as they're representatives of a larger organization and as such ho…

I've read this github issue fully

https://github.com/microsoft/terminal/issues/10362

and casey seemed very reasonable to me, possibly except maybe the last message. Apart from that, i don't really see an issue with the tone or attitude tbh.

Re: When I tell the Windows Terminal team something is simple, I am "misguided"

#347

Post by phaistra »

bena wrote: post #326
phaistra wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How was Casey wrong?

He was wrong in how he approached the team. Everyone lacks tact in this exchange.

Just because you don't think he was polite to some arbitrary standard does not make him wrong.

If people are this sensitive to "tone" and "tact" about technical matters, then we (as a community I guess) have much deeper issues then the technical matters themselves.

Re: When I tell the Windows Terminal team something is simple, I am "misguided"

#348

Post by brothir »

NikolaNovak wrote: post #300
ddalex wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But there is no "We apologize" either. There is a "we hope you (the community) accept the apology" - which apology ?! there wasn't one to begin with, because there is no "I/We apologize/are sorry" in the first place. And the apology should go to the individual harmed, not to the "community"

I find the format of "I've done wrong; please accept my apology" to be common and sufficient; clearly we have different expectations though -- or they are getting unanticipated amount of pedantic and semantic scrutiny (which in turn will eliminate posts like this, we'll get more corpo-santized-PR, but somehow I don't think that'll make people happy either :).

But there's a big difference between saying that directly to a person and not. Addressing many people, or rather trying to and failing, without getting specific severely reduces the sincerity and effectiveness of the apology.

The apology focuses more on what they did wrong internally, without getting into enough specifics of how it affected the external parties. And, some very serious issues weren't even mentioned.

Re: When I tell the Windows Terminal team something is simple, I am "misguided"

#349

Post by Nexxxeh »

johnwheeler wrote: post #309
kodah wrote: post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

imo, sarcasm only works over text if your text can be taken sarcastically and non-sarcastically.

Everyone knows you’re supposed to denote sarcasm with .

There's a (renewed?) push from Autistic/Ally TikTok users to use Tone Tags / Tone Indicators, especially when communicating with ND people.

https://tonetags.carrd.co/#masterlist

A number of creators, especially cosplayers, have recently shared posts encouraging their use.

I don't know how widespread it is, because TikTok and IG both tend to feed you content relating to your niches. So I may be seeing a disproportionate number.

(I had to Google what NBH was about, it means "This isn't aimed at anyone specific reading this".)

Re: When I tell the Windows Terminal team something is simple, I am "misguided"

#350

Post by kingcharles »

johnwheeler wrote: post #309
kodah wrote: post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

imo, sarcasm only works over text if your text can be taken sarcastically and non-sarcastically.

Everyone knows you’re supposed to denote sarcasm with .

Wait! Where's your opening tag? You monster!
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