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In the end, you're treated like a spy, says MIT scientist

nytimes.com

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Re: In the end, you're treated like a spy, says MIT scientist

#341

Post by jollybean »

Diesel555 wrote: post #202
jollybean wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The opposite of 'wacky' - key R&D and especially know-how is critical to the development of specific industries and in some cases, it should be guarded. It can take decades of effort, R&D, product development to develop the key understanding towards making for example, jet turbines, high speed trains, chip fabs etc.. Economic espionage is real and part of China's industrial strategy. It should be noted that 'everyone…

> So it's important that our 'values' of true justice, equality, transparency etc. are not compromised, and we don't want to regress to early 20th century racism This is a challenging problem for a democracy being exploited by an authoritarian government. The challenge is 1) Not causing xenophobia (as the article implies) while still 2) recognizing and preventing the practices and influence of the CCP on our populati…

Yes, that's exactly it.

The problem is that the 'infiltration' is pervasive, as designed by the CCP and it therefore gets really nuanced in terms of trying to uphold justice and anti-discrimination.

CCP is pursuing '360 Thought Control' within their borders ... but using every avenue outside their borders as well.

There are also subtle gradient problems as well: some Chinese students on campuses which have had CCP intimidation have state 'yes it's a thing, but really most of us consider it to be kind of ridiculous'. In that case, it may be a lot of 'intent' but little real influence.

But the indirect, knock-on effects can be as dramatic. I once saw a presentation by an American early state investor for the Shenzhen/HK area, keen to give an idea of how the area was expanding. His presentation talked about strategic initiatives of the local governors there, and it was right out of the governments talking points. In short, he was acting as shill for the CCP. I think the only reason he was doing it was to stay in the 'good books' of local governors and to develop relations. The leverage consistently utilized by Chinese government on all such matters is palpable. Hollywood which is an array of people within an industry, not a 'single entity' exemplifies this. The Dalai Lama no longer gets many meetings with high profile dignitaries, and Hollywood has basically 'shut up about the issue' for the most part due entirely to economic coercion.

Certainly, one of the measures Western Nations should implement is a transparency policy whereby their measures are given public airing, and possibly 'tit for tat' sanctions, which is to say all measures taken by them imply some kind of in-kind response. It would take a lot of coordination.

Re: In the end, you're treated like a spy, says MIT scientist

#342

Post by [deleted] »

FredPret wrote: post #175
lucian1900 wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Class struggle is the engine of history. Whether that fact is healthy for myself personally or not has no bearing on its truth. The company I work for keeps more of the value I create than they pay me. Whether I like it or not, I'm working class and in direct opposition to capitalists.

1) I doubt you're actually working class, even if you're working for money 2) Capitalism is a decentralized system of allocating resources. By working and investing (even if just owning a retirement plan), you are taking part in it all. You may now collect your monocle and top hat. 3) Getting paid some fraction between 0 and 1 of the value you create is a fact of nature for all actors in the system. The company has t…

[deleted]

Re: In the end, you're treated like a spy, says MIT scientist

#343

Post by platinumrad »

mlindner wrote: post #325
jrockway wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the "accused" part is the problem. Interacting with the court system is expensive both financially and emotionally. We need to be very careful where we apply it, and that means being careful about who we accuse and for what reasons.

Expecting zero mistakes is unreasonable. The system worked correctly. The person who was not guilty was found not guilty.

Yeah the system worked correctly. He only lost a year of his life. Whoopsies!

Re: In the end, you're treated like a spy, says MIT scientist

#344

Post by jollybean »

jollybean wrote: post #150
beepbooptheory wrote: post #77

To at least attempt to think about this critically, and to try to ignore the amount of frankly shocking things people are saying here, can I ask, maybe from people in the field, is this level of industrial/scientific espionage even a critical factor in our current world? We live in a global world where scientists in various institutions are constantly trading papers, findings. Why are we so worried that the U.S. migh…

The opposite of 'wacky' - key R&D and especially know-how is critical to the development of specific industries and in some cases, it should be guarded. It can take decades of effort, R&D, product development to develop the key understanding towards making for example, jet turbines, high speed trains, chip fabs etc.. Economic espionage is real and part of China's industrial strategy. It should be noted that 'everyone…

Edit: China is indicating the recent Omicron outbreak there is from Canadian frozen food (not Chinese, as I miswrote). A blatantly terrible bit of propaganda.

Re: In the end, you're treated like a spy, says MIT scientist

#345

Post by nobody9999 »

dnautics wrote: post #247
matthewdgreen wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am a professor in the field of cryptography and there are export restrictions here as well. Under no circumstances would I allow the US government to block publication of my papers or talks based on the theory that my speech is “a technology export.” It’s not even clear that this would be allowed under the First Amendment. The government could obviously try to advance that theory, but I strongly suspect they would…

If you didn't take money from the federal government, I would be inclined to agree with you, that export controls are an abridgement of the freedom of speech, but if your work is taxpayer-funded, then the government absolutely has the authority to restrict how you use the fruits of those funds; if you cannot abide by them then perhaps consider stop taking federal funds?

>has the authority to restrict how you use the fruits of those funds; if you cannot abide by them then perhaps consider stop taking federal funds?

Not sure if you're familiar with this bit[0]:

   Congress shall make no law respecting an 
   establishment of religion, or prohibiting the
   free exercise thereof; *or abridging the 
   freedom of speech*,
Are you arguing that taking public money obviates the above?

I'd say that since the government is involved, the above (are you not familiar with that bit?) is absolutely relevant and needs to be respected -- given that it's the law of the land.

[0] https://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/first_amendment

Re: In the end, you're treated like a spy, says MIT scientist

#346

Post by musesum »

tejohnso wrote: post #36

> “My thinking is, I didn’t do anything wrong,” he said. “So whatever they look at, they won’t find that I did anything wrong.” This statement seems like a completely backward mindset to have, especially after watching this classic advice piece on youtube [1]. [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-7o9xYp7eE

I wonder, if ever interviewed by the Police, I could just say: "No thanks, search on YouTube for 'Don't Talk to the Police' for why. Or maybe, giving that reason why I won't talk means that I'm actually talking to the police?

Somewhat a tangent: when going through due diligence for Series A, my CEO said: "Remember, they are not your friends." The thing was, though, after they invested, the VC fired him.

Maybe that's the difference between prosecutors and makers.

Re: In the end, you're treated like a spy, says MIT scientist

#348

Post by varjag »

kragen wrote: post #228
varjag wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Deaths Hundreds of thousands to millions of civilian, Red Guards and military deaths Still not obvious.

You posted that response literally three minutes after my comment. That's barely enough time to read the introduction section of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_Revolution . I suggest you spend more than three minutes learning about a thing before complaining that things are not obvious to you about it. Three hours would be reasonable. You could spend the first hour or two just reading that article, or start w…

That quote was literally from Cultural Revolution WP summary, so you may well heed your own advice and read it for once.

My point was that any parallels between that and events in the USA are nothing but disingenuous exaggeration. Consider just how vague your allusions are: without knowing your political views I would be at loss figuring if you allude to the rise of proto-fascist American right or lament the assault of Left woke culture.

Re: In the end, you're treated like a spy, says MIT scientist

#349

Post by dnautics »

nobody9999 wrote: post #345
dnautics wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you didn't take money from the federal government, I would be inclined to agree with you, that export controls are an abridgement of the freedom of speech, but if your work is taxpayer-funded, then the government absolutely has the authority to restrict how you use the fruits of those funds; if you cannot abide by them then perhaps consider stop taking federal funds?

>has the authority to restrict how you use the fruits of those funds; if you cannot abide by them then perhaps consider stop taking federal funds? Not sure if you're familiar with this bit[0]: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; *or abridging the freedom of speech*, Are you arguing that taking public money obviates the above? I'd say that since…

going to quote my sibling child comment here:

If you are, say a high ranking general at the pentagon -- which is a position directly paid by the government, then can you claim "first amendment" if you pass military secrets on to an adversarial government? Of course not.

I suggest you think about why a general gets treated differently than a private citizen. Suppose you are a private citizen and manage to snap a picture of a secret research plane coming out of area 51, while not in the bounds of the facility. You will very likely enjoy first amendment privileges.

Re: In the end, you're treated like a spy, says MIT scientist

#350

Post by kragen »

varjag wrote: post #348
kragen wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You posted that response literally three minutes after my comment. That's barely enough time to read the introduction section of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_Revolution . I suggest you spend more than three minutes learning about a thing before complaining that things are not obvious to you about it. Three hours would be reasonable. You could spend the first hour or two just reading that article, or start w…

That quote was literally from Cultural Revolution WP summary, so you may well heed your own advice and read it for once. My point was that any parallels between that and events in the USA are nothing but disingenuous exaggeration. Consider just how vague your allusions are: without knowing your political views I would be at loss figuring if you allude to the rise of proto-fascist American right or lament the assault…

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