Unvaccinated workers who lose jobs ineligible for unemployment benefits (Canada) • Hacker News Board

Re: Unvaccinated workers who lose jobs ineligible for unemployment benefits (Canada)

#341

Post by leereeves » Sat, Jan 01, 2022, 5:12 PM UTC

throw0101a wrote: post #333

criticaltinker wrote: post #313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes and this type of doublespeak is coming from the top down in many countries. It’s alarming because “they don’t believe in science” has become a divisive weapon that hand waves away all scientific nuance. The vast majority of young healthy people are completely asymptomatic, they don’t need a vaccine, nor would it be a wise investment of limited doses. Also, previous infection confers protection that is at least as…

> The vast majority of young healthy people are completely asymptomatic, they don’t need a vaccine, nor would it be a wise investment of limited doses. Of course they need a vaccine. Just because you don't have symptoms does not mean (a) that you're not carrying it, and (b) can't infect someone who may not be as healthy as you. Further it's difficult to predict ahead of time how an individual will react to being infe…

> and there are no ICU beds for them

According to the CBC, the lack of available hospital beds pre-dates Covid and exists even when Covid case counts are low. From Why Ontario hospitals are full to bursting, despite few COVID-19 patients:

"The data suggests many hospitals have returned to the overcrowding levels seen before the pandemic, when CBC News revealed hospitals filled beyond capacity nearly every single day, with patients housed in hallways, conference rooms and cafeterias not as exceptional cases, but as a matter of routine.[1]"

It's unfair to scapegoat the unvaccinated for systemic failures that aren't really due to Covid at all.

1: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ontario-hospital-occu...

Re: Unvaccinated workers who lose jobs ineligible for unemployment benefits (Canada)

#342

Post by kolanos » Sat, Jan 01, 2022, 5:14 PM UTC

micromacrofoot wrote: post #235

kolanos wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.healthline.com/health-news/leaky-vaccines-can-pr...

ok now where’s the link that provides evidence of this happening with covid? or are you just guessing?

I'm just pointing out that your claim that a vaccine making a virus more virulent being "nonsense" is not supported by >50 years of scientific research. Especially if that vaccine is leaky, which the current vaccines appear to be.

Re: Unvaccinated workers who lose jobs ineligible for unemployment benefits (Canada)

#343

Post by throw0101a » Sat, Jan 01, 2022, 5:14 PM UTC

finite_jest wrote: post #55

Ardon wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If a seatbelt doest stop you from dying in 100% of car crashes, I don't understand why they're mandatory?

> If a seatbelt doest stop you from dying in 100% of car crashes, I don't understand why they're mandatory? Interestingly, your comparison is relevant, but you are responding to an argument which I don't think is being made. The OP is _not_ arguing that vaccines shouldn't be mandatory because they aren't 100% effective. On the contrary, the OP's argument is that since vaccines are relatively effective, one person's c…

> […] one person's choice to not get vaccinated will not effect the others, and it should be up to them.

But it will effect others:

> But here’s the thing. A crankish libertarian – I count myself as one – might understand that seatbelts save lives, and still object to being required to wear one, on personal freedom grounds. That’s perhaps tenable when it comes to seatbelt laws, since the only life in peril from not wearing one is your own.

> But vaccines not only make it less likely that you will be infected, suffer or die: They also make it less likely that you will infect others, to suffer and die – and infect still more people – in their turn. (And yes, despite what you might have heard, the evidence[1] is also clear[2] that vaccines reduce transmission rates.) This is hardly a theoretical concern, in the midst of a pandemic that has already claimed nearly 30,000 Canadian lives.

> So if anything the case for vaccine mandates is even stronger than it is for seatbelt laws. The cost to personal freedom – a jab in the arm – is slight. The risk of adverse side-effects is negligible. The savings in human lives is provably enormous. How on earth could so many otherwise sensible[3] people have persuaded themselves otherwise?

* https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/article-is-the-case-...

* https://archive.fo/ayjkf

Re: Unvaccinated workers who lose jobs ineligible for unemployment benefits (Canada)

#344

Post by throw0101a » Sat, Jan 01, 2022, 5:16 PM UTC

leereeves wrote: post #341

throw0101a wrote: post #333

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The vast majority of young healthy people are completely asymptomatic, they don’t need a vaccine, nor would it be a wise investment of limited doses. Of course they need a vaccine. Just because you don't have symptoms does not mean (a) that you're not carrying it, and (b) can't infect someone who may not be as healthy as you. Further it's difficult to predict ahead of time how an individual will react to being infe…

> and there are no ICU beds for them According to the CBC, the lack of available hospital beds pre-dates Covid and exists even when Covid case counts are low. From Why Ontario hospitals are full to bursting, despite few COVID-19 patients : "The data suggests many hospitals have returned to the overcrowding levels seen before the pandemic, when CBC News revealed hospitals filled beyond capacity nearly every single day…

Saying that adding more load to an already overloaded system is fine isn't as helpful to the argument as you think…

Re: Unvaccinated workers who lose jobs ineligible for unemployment benefits (Canada)

#345

Post by throw0101a » Sat, Jan 01, 2022, 5:19 PM UTC

Radim wrote: post #283

Quoted post unavailable.

> TL;DR: Little known but Nazis dressed their prosecution of wrong-groups in health concerns. Both linguistically and visually: "social parasites", "vermin", "plague", "taking resources away, from normal-law-abiding-science-respecting Germans", etc.

Yeah:

> The vaccine passport is exactly like the Nazi yellow star - if the Nazi yellow star meant that the recipients had received life-saving medicine at no cost to themselves and with maybe some free lottery tickets as a side bonus.

* https://twitter.com/davidfrum/status/1437045106121625613

(David Frum, former speech writer for Bush43, is Jewish.)

Re: Unvaccinated workers who lose jobs ineligible for unemployment benefits (Canada)

#346

Post by MiroF » Sat, Jan 01, 2022, 5:24 PM UTC

yostrovs wrote: post #329

MiroF wrote: post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Beyond the other obvious problems with your comment, you're also missing the fact that many of the people dying of AIDS died 10+ years after contracting the virus, substantially before any of the science on HIV spread was settled.

By the 1990s you would have had to live under a rock not to know to use condoms.

Dying in the 1990s of AIDS likely means you acquired the disease in the early to mid 80s, you clearly are unaware of the science behind the disease.

Re: Unvaccinated workers who lose jobs ineligible for unemployment benefits (Canada)

#347

Post by kif » Sat, Jan 01, 2022, 5:26 PM UTC

random314 wrote: post #315

guidovranken wrote: post #58

In other festive COVID news from Canada: >Canada's Justin Trudeau on the unvaccinated: >“They don’t believe in science/progress and are very often misogynistic and racist....This leads us, as a leader and as a country, to make a choice: Do we tolerate these people?" https://twitter.com/KevinBardosh/status/1476838517007257600 My patience with COVID cultists is starting to run quite thin.

Quoted post unavailable.

This person gives very good arguments why antivaxxers exist: https://twitter.com/YossiGestetner

Even he admits he doesn't believe stuff he writes sometimes, but he does it to show why there's dissent.

Re: Unvaccinated workers who lose jobs ineligible for unemployment benefits (Canada)

#348

Post by dekhn » Sat, Jan 01, 2022, 5:29 PM UTC

spaginal wrote: post #307

dekhn wrote: post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Note that the Supreme Court validated Jacobson vs. Massachusetts, supporting the right of the government to mandate vaccines (remember, George Washington mandated vaccines for his troops) and showing that the power of the state ultimately trumps the freedoms of people. Honestly, you're making arguments (in multiple comments) that make you look petulant, rather than providing a reasonable argument againt vaccine manda…

The Supreme Court also validated slavery and other actions that proved to be incredibly damaging to the society. As for George Washington, if you are attempting to make the argument that the government has a right to inoculate it’s military soldiers during war time against a disease, so be it, there is your precedent to argue upon. Furthermore, Washington has a habit of requiring many things, including the Militia Ac…

If you're referring Dred Scott, I agree the Supreme Court validated slavery (this is at least one of the causes of the Civil War). That is, the decision had such consequence that the nation was nearly split, and after the war, several amendments were added that overrode the Court.

I don't see anybody gearing up to have a civil war over vaccines, just a bunch of "make a better argument for why you have the right to tell me I have to do this, with economic or social consequences if I don't" responses. The military already exited folks who didn't comply with COVID vaccines, and the Biden administration has already requested that the SC officially rule on workplace mandates (https://www.supremecourt.gov/DocketPDF/21/21A244/206997/2021...).

Re: Unvaccinated workers who lose jobs ineligible for unemployment benefits (Canada)

#349

Post by ifyoubuildit » Sat, Jan 01, 2022, 5:29 PM UTC

simonh wrote: post #317

leereeves wrote: post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't the vaccine supposed to provide that protection from (catching Covid from) them?

Unvaccinated people are a threat to the public on many grounds. Many of these points are already all over this discussion here, but you’re asking so here they are. Unvaccinated people with covid on average have the infection for longer and have higher viral loads, so they are more likely to spread the virus to others than vaccinated people are. They are much more likely to need hospitalisation, putting a burden on th…

We have a terminology problem, and nobody seems to notice or care. Everyone is using sloppy language and has been for most of this thing.

In reality, there are more bits here than just vaccine status, and even that isn't binary, unless you start talking about the moving target of "fully vaccinated".

An unvaccinated person who has been infected and recovered is not at all the same as a person who has not. Yet here you are righteously and confidently proclaiming that "these people are a clear danger to the public".

Your statement is a serious accusation, and it is sloppy and imprecise, and plain wrong for some significant chunk of the people it is being lobbed at. Yet not many people will bat an eye, because its the same sloppy language everyone else is using.

Re: Unvaccinated workers who lose jobs ineligible for unemployment benefits (Canada)

#350

Post by leereeves » Sat, Jan 01, 2022, 5:32 PM UTC

throw0101a wrote: post #344

leereeves wrote: post #341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and there are no ICU beds for them According to the CBC, the lack of available hospital beds pre-dates Covid and exists even when Covid case counts are low. From Why Ontario hospitals are full to bursting, despite few COVID-19 patients : "The data suggests many hospitals have returned to the overcrowding levels seen before the pandemic, when CBC News revealed hospitals filled beyond capacity nearly every single day…

Saying that adding more load to an already overloaded system is fine isn't as helpful to the argument as you think…

I'm not claiming it's fine. I'm vaccinated and I try to convince others to get vaccinated.

But many people contribute to the problem with a variety of unhealthy life choices, and blaming one particular group for the problem, and writing policies to punish that group (many of whom also happen to be the PM's political opponents), is the worst kind of politics.

And suggesting that the lack of healthcare in Canada is caused by the unvaccinated is simply dishonest.