Cryptocurrencies’ Carbon Footprint Underestimated • Hacker News Board

Re: Cryptocurrencies’ Carbon Footprint Underestimated

#341

Post by geysersam » Wed, Oct 06, 2021, 5:45 AM UTC

asdff wrote: post #318

geysersam wrote: post #295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If we are going to decide some carbon emissions more essential than others. Why not just exclude them from the carbon taxation to begin with?

Because wealthier groups and individuals can afford to pay taxes that impoverished people can't? There are all kinds of subsidies for the poor today where wealthier people pay a higher price. There is precedent here for that.

> Because wealthier groups and individuals can afford to pay taxes that impoverished people can't?

Yes, definitely. I could afford paying 50% tax on flights. Most people in the world could not pay 50% more for their transportation.

The problem with a carbon tax is that it values all emissions equally. But on a global scale, some emissions are more essential than others. (Food, shelter, transportation to work etc)

Re: Cryptocurrencies’ Carbon Footprint Underestimated

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Post by openfuture » Wed, Oct 06, 2021, 7:11 AM UTC

endisneigh wrote: post #242

openfuture wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any "solution" that rests on "educating people" is not going to work. What works is incentives and design that makes it hard to misuse or obvious how to use.

> Any "solution" that rests on "educating people" is not going to work. This is not true at all, lol. How do you think modern civilization came to be?

Man, I think our premises are incompatible, I view "civilization" as regression and arrogance (read the Wikipedia intro or dictionary definition and tell me otherwise).

It doesn't solve anything for anyone, it's just an effective system of slavery.

Re: Cryptocurrencies’ Carbon Footprint Underestimated

#343

Post by sktrdie » Wed, Oct 06, 2021, 8:23 AM UTC

endisneigh wrote: post #3

There's some good data here - that being said, even if the carbon footprint were literally zero, I couldn't personally support cryptocurrency. Fundamentally it's the antithesis to democracy. Say whatever you will about all forms of government, but ultimately no matter the form, there's some level of accountability. Some governments use elections to facilitate this, others use the threat of rulers being killed. One wa…

I don't understand this. The whole point of the p2p system is that you vote with the software you have installed. If people want to remove oligarchs that control the system they can simply move to a different kind of software, leaving the oligarchs with little or no value of their coins.

In fact that was the whole selling point for me of cryptocurrencies. Anybody can join and shape the system by agreeing on the type of software and creating a system that can be easily shaped (through software) instead of a system that is quite hard to shape (current financial system).

Re: Cryptocurrencies’ Carbon Footprint Underestimated

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Post by sktrdie » Wed, Oct 06, 2021, 8:36 AM UTC

Does anybody have any real scientific insight into the idea that Cryptocurrencies can harness energy from far away places that is already being wasted?

We need to send most of traditional energy to our households, cars, manufacturing facilities etc. This cost of transportation to me is the key difference.

Crypocurrencies don't need this. Imagine putting some mining rigs in orbit near the sun and harnessing the already abundant solar energy. All you need to send back to earth is a few bytes.

Re: Cryptocurrencies’ Carbon Footprint Underestimated

#345

Post by croes » Wed, Oct 06, 2021, 9:05 AM UTC

fleddr wrote: post #255

croes wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You aren't forced to use crypto because fiat exists. If fiat would be replaced by crypto, you would be forced. Crypto is not democratic, it's redundant and it heavily biased towards the one with most resources. It's an oligarchy.

Heavily biased towards the one with the most resources? You mean like with every asset class?

Yep, that's why crypto doesn't change anything.

Re: Cryptocurrencies’ Carbon Footprint Underestimated

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Post by xadhominemx » Wed, Oct 06, 2021, 12:43 PM UTC

pshc wrote: post #180

xadhominemx wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Bitcoin at least was a deliberate response to what I would paraphrase as the "socialism for the rich, capitalism for the rest" policies of the last global financial crisis. Was it actually, though?

Ostensibly, yes, with the genesis block containing the string "The Times 03/Jan/2009 Chancellor on brink of second bailout for banks"

Ostensibly, ya. But really, I don’t think so.

Re: Cryptocurrencies’ Carbon Footprint Underestimated

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Post by klibertp » Wed, Oct 06, 2021, 1:17 PM UTC

twofornone wrote: post #330

dqx wrote: post #314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree, most of the violent rioters were armed. It is well documented that organizers had to encourage attendees to leave their guns at home or in their cars (as you mentioned, several were arrested with firearms in their cars on their way to or from the riot). > The vast majority of participants weren't actually part of any of the so called "far right" groups (e.g. oathkeepers) LOTS of self-recorded evidence shows…

There's no point in having this discussion if you're continuously going to represent my words. 1. I said vast majority. I didn't day such people weren't present. These are not large groups to begin with. 2. Once again you are twisting the word "armed" to conflate flagpoles and bear mace with guns. My original point stands. You don't go about an insurrection in 2021 without bringing your guns. The rest of what you wro…

I have no idea why are you being downvoted. Your argumentation is sound and consistent, and your adversary argues in what looks like a bad faith.

Calling it an (attempted) "insurection" or a "coup" just doesn't check out. I'm not sure, but I think nobody with any power (who could be forced to pass that power to someone, hence making it a coup) even was there in the building during that time? What would be the point of attacking target like this, if the goal was a "coup"?

Anyway, I'm not that interested in this in the first place, but I think your argument is well laid out, it was a pleasure to read this thread.

Re: Cryptocurrencies’ Carbon Footprint Underestimated

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Post by dqx » Wed, Oct 06, 2021, 1:54 PM UTC

twofornone wrote: post #330

dqx wrote: post #314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree, most of the violent rioters were armed. It is well documented that organizers had to encourage attendees to leave their guns at home or in their cars (as you mentioned, several were arrested with firearms in their cars on their way to or from the riot). > The vast majority of participants weren't actually part of any of the so called "far right" groups (e.g. oathkeepers) LOTS of self-recorded evidence shows…

There's no point in having this discussion if you're continuously going to represent my words. 1. I said vast majority. I didn't day such people weren't present. These are not large groups to begin with. 2. Once again you are twisting the word "armed" to conflate flagpoles and bear mace with guns. My original point stands. You don't go about an insurrection in 2021 without bringing your guns. The rest of what you wro…

1. The vast majority were part of the far-right organizations, it was organized by far-right organizations. We have the evidence, we have their communications, they were stupid enough to post everything on social media, we have the video of their little hoodies and logos.

2. They were armed with flagpoles, knives, baseball bats, fire extinguishers, mace, and guns.

Thank you for not even trying to continue pretending the officers that died just happened to die of unrelated causes. Luckily you dropped that the second you were called on it. They died because they were beaten by a violent mob, as confirmed by several medical examiners. You disrespect their lives when you argue in bad faith otherwise, and the Blue Lives Matter bumper sticker on your car.

I never argued there was an insurrection. I argued that an armed, violent riot was staged and organized by the far right, resulting in the deaths of 5 police officers, and the injury of at least 138 more, and extensive damage to The Capitol. Or as you put it, "a 99.9% peaceful riot." The commander in chief of the US military was not powerful enough to stop it.

Re: Cryptocurrencies’ Carbon Footprint Underestimated

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Post by dqx » Wed, Oct 06, 2021, 3:51 PM UTC

iszomer wrote: post #324

dqx wrote: post #323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Can you source this Trump being a very rich business leader with a great deal of political influence? Well, yeah I can. https://libn.com/2016/09/15/taking-a-peek-at-trumps-foundati... > why you're defining this as a purely oligarchal [sic] issue That was the topic of the GP > Is that really the issue here though, because he lacked "political experience" upon entry into the presidency? No need for quotes, Trump had…

> Trump had 0 experience holding any political office at any level, in contrast to Reagan. Yeah well he certainly does now, however brief it was.

Yep, we got a great idea of his political acumen handling the pandemic response.

Re: Cryptocurrencies’ Carbon Footprint Underestimated

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Post by twofornone » Wed, Oct 06, 2021, 5:21 PM UTC

dqx wrote: post #348

twofornone wrote: post #330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no point in having this discussion if you're continuously going to represent my words. 1. I said vast majority. I didn't day such people weren't present. These are not large groups to begin with. 2. Once again you are twisting the word "armed" to conflate flagpoles and bear mace with guns. My original point stands. You don't go about an insurrection in 2021 without bringing your guns. The rest of what you wro…

1. The vast majority were part of the far-right organizations, it was organized by far-right organizations. We have the evidence, we have their communications, they were stupid enough to post everything on social media, we have the video of their little hoodies and logos. 2. They were armed with flagpoles, knives, baseball bats, fire extinguishers, mace, and guns. Thank you for not even trying to continue pretending…

One officer died of a stroke and the other four died of suicide. You have been mislead and are spreading misinformation by implying that they were killed by rioters. For all we know, some or all of them took their own lives because they agreed with the rioters but were forced to fight them. Blaming the rioters for their deaths is pure, biased speculation. Are you also blaming nationwide BLM riots for officer suicides?

You are fundamentally not arguing in good faith and continue to twist my words and make disingenuous arguments. For the third time, my original point was that this was not an insurrection because the rioters did not bring guns. That they were technically "armed" with flagpoles and mace does not change the argument, nor is it an excuse for you and the media to conflate "armed" with "carrying lethal ranged weapons (guns)". That is my entire argument and everything else you've written is not relevant to this discussion.

Also >They died because they were beaten by a violent mob, as confirmed by several medical examiners

This is one of the many blatant falsehoods that you are regurgitating.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/third-d-c-officer-who-r...