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Heart inflammation cases in young men higher than expected after mRNA vaccines

reuters.com

341–350 of 415 posts

Re: Heart inflammation cases in young men higher than expected after mRNA vaccines

#341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>As a healthy 30 year old I would prefer to take my risk with covid than take these vaccines. As an exhausted 34 year old who spent the last year field-monitoring vaccine trials, I would love to see the sources that informed your position.

Alright. As an exhausted 37 year old, I'm going to stick my neck out and explain why I've chosen to put myself at the back of the queue for vaccines this time around. I'm sure the authorities will find some way to force me to take it at some point, but refusing these vaccines is a rational position. You may not agree with it, but it's based on rationality and logic. So here are my reasons. Firstly, I don't believe CO…

A couple of quibbles

>The spike protein is, let's be clear about this, a toxin. If you were injected with sufficient amounts of mRNA vaccine for long enough you would die

By that definition everything in the world is a toxin - inject enough and it'll kill you. In practice the spike protein doesn't. I mean I had the pfizer three weeks back - it makes your arm sore and stiff and probably has similar effects elsewhere in the body if it travels but it's basically gone in a week and you're back to normal.

>IFRs of 0.1-0.2%

It'd got to be higher than that. In Mexico, population 127 mil, excess deaths are about 622k which is 0.49% of the population dead. If you guess half of them caught it, it puts the IFR about 1%. Obviously mortality varies by age etc. (excess deaths http://www.healthdata.org/special-analysis/estimation-excess...)

Re: Heart inflammation cases in young men higher than expected after mRNA vaccines

#342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given the sheer volume of doses delivered and the capability to detect clotting risks (az, JJ), the fact that clotting risk did not go up with biontech and moderna might throw a wrench into that hunch. But even then, not seeing an indication of risk within two orders of magnitude of covid itself.

the fact that clotting risk did not go up with biontech and moderna might throw a wrench into that hunch. There's no agreement on what's really happening. For example, clotting risk from the mRNA vaccines is supposedly the same as for the AstraZeneca vaccines, but governments across Europe already suspended the AZ vaccine due to clotting risks (supposedly). Therefore by implication, they would also consider the mRNA…

I'm not convinced by "supposedly the same." Sure you can get blood clots after pfizer as well as after az but you can also get them after having a cup of tea as people get clots in general. I don't think there has been statistically significant data that pfizer etc cause extra clots, unlike az. (eg https://www.businessinsider.com/covid-vaccine-blood-clot-ris...)

Re: Heart inflammation cases in young men higher than expected after mRNA vaccines

#343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>which is what Covid binds to. You mean the SARS-2 spike protein binds to the ACE receptors. mRNA vaccines create the spike protein so it's going to work in exactly the same way as natural infection. Recent research from Japan is showing that the spike protein from vaccination is not staying at the injection site it can get into the blood stream (and causes blood clots as are widely reported), crossing the blood brai…

You're not wrong, there have been some cases where Astra and JJ caused some blood clotting. From what I read somewhere (can't find the link), the thought is that spreading out the two shots might be helpful. I thought it was Canada that was considering doing this but might be wrong. They were thinking of giving the first shot and then waiting 2 months too give the second shot to younger people. I wish I could find th…

I wonder if 14 days is a bit quick in terms of being wiped out after the second jab. I've had one jab - prob going to leave it longer.

Re: Heart inflammation cases in young men higher than expected after mRNA vaccines

#344
post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for the article, an interesting read for sure. It’s nice to see there’s been plenty of follow-up study on this. Respectfully, you’re wrong to say “thoroughly disproven”. Even the article ends with the suggestion that it’s a side-effect of covid, albeit a rare one. The article’s position is more that it was overblown to worry about stopping young athletes from competing for fear of myo being a common side-effec…

My wife died from myocarditis 2 months ago. The only thing she tested positive for was COVID. The coroner's report however, was quite clear that COVID did not cause her death or the myocarditis and that there has been no such reported case anywhere in the world. If anyone has information to dispute that I would be very interested to see it. Thanks

[deleted]

Re: Heart inflammation cases in young men higher than expected after mRNA vaccines

#345
post #25

Very interesting given one of the lesser known complications of covid can be myocarditis in otherwise healthy individuals with few or no other covid symptoms. In fact, it’s likely the incidence of covid-induced myocarditis is vastly underreported given it often shows no symptoms and can only reasonably be diagnosed with a cardiac MRI which is not always widely available or advised for less-serious heart conditions. I…

The spike protein causes cellular damage, doesn’t matter if it comes from the vaccine or virus

It does matter because the degree of damage is much greater if you get infected by the virus.

Re: Heart inflammation cases in young men higher than expected after mRNA vaccines

#346
post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Thing is, even if you're against new-technology vaccines, we have numerous old-technology vaccines following the same paradigms used to make the vaccines I mentioned above (AZ, JJ, etc). Those two are viral-vector vaccines, which isn't old-technology. They're almost as new as mRNA vaccines.

Good catch; I'd conflated viral vector with inactivated vaccines. The plurality are inactivated, but nonetheless, not the majority. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_COVID-19_vaccine_autho...

Per that image, none of which are available at all in the US, Canada, Australia, or most of Europe, so...

Re: Heart inflammation cases in young men higher than expected after mRNA vaccines

#347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>As a healthy 30 year old I would prefer to take my risk with covid than take these vaccines. As an exhausted 34 year old who spent the last year field-monitoring vaccine trials, I would love to see the sources that informed your position.

Alright. As an exhausted 37 year old, I'm going to stick my neck out and explain why I've chosen to put myself at the back of the queue for vaccines this time around. I'm sure the authorities will find some way to force me to take it at some point, but refusing these vaccines is a rational position. You may not agree with it, but it's based on rationality and logic. So here are my reasons. Firstly, I don't believe CO…

The worst part of all this is the needless destruction of a lot of Science’s social capital.

Society is not going to solve any of its big problems if Science is viewed as just another source of political rhetoric.

Re: Heart inflammation cases in young men higher than expected after mRNA vaccines

#348
post #342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the fact that clotting risk did not go up with biontech and moderna might throw a wrench into that hunch. There's no agreement on what's really happening. For example, clotting risk from the mRNA vaccines is supposedly the same as for the AstraZeneca vaccines, but governments across Europe already suspended the AZ vaccine due to clotting risks (supposedly). Therefore by implication, they would also consider the mRNA…

I'm not convinced by "supposedly the same." Sure you can get blood clots after pfizer as well as after az but you can also get them after having a cup of tea as people get clots in general. I don't think there has been statistically significant data that pfizer etc cause extra clots, unlike az. (eg https://www.businessinsider.com/covid-vaccine-blood-clot-ris... )

The study in question is from Oxford University and claims equal rates. Indeed, it may be wrong. However that's kind of the point - this thread is full of people making claims about vaccine efficacy or safety, but for basically any claim you want you can just plug it into Bing or DuckDuckGo and immediately find scientific studies that appear to contradict it. Science can tell you almost anything and everything, it seems, so no big surprise that people find it hard to trust.

Re: Heart inflammation cases in young men higher than expected after mRNA vaccines

#349
mRNA vaccines are likely the future of vaccinations, but I continued with the older and battle tested vaccination route (whichever provider was offering the 1 dose vaccine).

I know these are cases are very rare, but I would like to do my part in minimizing any potential risks.

Re: Heart inflammation cases in young men higher than expected after mRNA vaccines

#350
post #341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Alright. As an exhausted 37 year old, I'm going to stick my neck out and explain why I've chosen to put myself at the back of the queue for vaccines this time around. I'm sure the authorities will find some way to force me to take it at some point, but refusing these vaccines is a rational position. You may not agree with it, but it's based on rationality and logic. So here are my reasons. Firstly, I don't believe CO…

A couple of quibbles >The spike protein is, let's be clear about this, a toxin. If you were injected with sufficient amounts of mRNA vaccine for long enough you would die By that definition everything in the world is a toxin - inject enough and it'll kill you. In practice the spike protein doesn't. I mean I had the pfizer three weeks back - it makes your arm sore and stiff and probably has similar effects elsewhere i…

I suppose that's technically true, but what I mean is that injecting e.g. water would not cause cell death. Yes if you attach yourself to a IV water pump then you can kill yourself by totally de-balancing your body chemistry, but water is not itself a toxin. It doesn't cause cell death or attack the body in any way.

By the way, the fact that the body can flush it out doesn't mean it's not a toxin. Alcohol is gone from the body within hours of getting drunk but it's still a toxin, technically speaking.

In contrast, the mRNA vaccine works by getting cells to do things that cause them to be destroyed by the immune system ASAP. Even small amounts are thus (cyto)toxic and the question is how much can the body tolerate.

One of the things that makes me uneasy about the mRNA tech is there seems to be very little discussion or research about dosages, and in particular how cell death levels compare between getting vaccinated and actually being infected with the real thing. This would seem to be fundamental because at some level, the vaccine is actually creating the same problem inside the body that the virus is, the only difference is that the virus can self replicate whereas the mRNA does not (except apparently in the case of so-called "self-amplifying mRNA" vaccines, see below). Thus the question of dosage is critical. If being infected with the virus causes 10x less cell death than the vaccine then I want to take my chances with the virus. If the vaccine causes 10x less cell death than a real viral infection, then it looks better. As ultimately, it's cell death and the fight to destroy those cells that makes people sick.

Such numbers are (nearly?) impossible to find. Vaccine dosages are very different between the different manufacturers. The Moderna vaccine has a dose more than 3x higher than the Pfizer vaccine, for example (100 µg vs 30 µg), which is itself 3x higher than the dose for the Curevac vaccine (12µg).[1] It's a bit unclear how these very different numbers were arrived at or what they're being calibrated against.

W.R.T. the SAM vaccines, also in [1] we find the following text:

"The other type of mRNA vaccines, SAMs, do not only encode the target antigen but also RNA polymerase encoding ‘self-amplifying’ factors derived from Alphavirus ... These are in turn transcribed to many coding mRNA molecules, leading to prolonged and enhanced antigen expression ... The two SAM vaccines in clinical development are nCoVsaRNA by the Imperial College London and ARCT-021 by Arcturus/Duke-NUS (both as mRNA-LNP)."

It's very unclear to me, as a layman, how this artificial "self amplifying RNA" that incorporates elements from a virus is so very different from an actual virus, given that the SARS-CoV-2 is itself basically RNA surrounded by a coating in a form that can self-replicate. Traditional vaccines are virus based but the virus is inert. The new vaccines appear to be ending up at the same end-point but without the whole making it inert part.

It'd got to be higher than that. In Mexico, population 127 mil, excess deaths are about 622k which is 0.49% of the population dead.

The number comes from meta-studies that examine a large range of IFR studies. There is a lot of variance between them - they don't all arrive at the same value, presumably because IFR is inherently difficult to measure. Infected people who don't feel sick enough to report are the dark matter of epidemiology.

However, excess death values are quite tricky to evaluate because they're excess relative to some model of what should have happened in an alternate timeline where the event in question never occurred. For example you can calculate an excess death value for Sweden of zero by making one or two plausible assumptions, or you can calculate a higher value using equally plausible assumptions, and who is to say which is correct? Ultimately you can't know what would have happened otherwise, only extrapolate from the past and try to guess. Some of those extrapolations look suspect on examination (e.g. using fixed averages, or very short timespans), just like everything else around this topic.

[1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8032477/

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