We Don't Have a Talent Shortage. We Have a Sucker Shortage • Hacker News Board

Re: We Don't Have a Talent Shortage. We Have a Sucker Shortage

#341

Post by 0_gravitas » Sat, Apr 20, 2019, 9:24 PM UTC

rubicon33 wrote: post #306

_57jb wrote: post #300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you are making the mistake that enterprises who employ thousands of developers are looking for quality over butts in seats.

Yup. And they're missing the point that this isn't 1985 anymore. A high school student with a week of JavaScript and HTML could write AirBnB. Or at least, JavaScript and similar languages make programming much, much easier (and hence the barrier to entry much easier). As coding difficulty drops, and supply increases, the net effect will be a much higher demand for jobs than supply. And that's exactly where big tech w…

I see this hyperbole a lot, any kid within a week can copy an online tutorial on how to make a static site, but it takes a long time to begin to think in a way that let's you do interesting/useful things on your own.

Re: We Don't Have a Talent Shortage. We Have a Sucker Shortage

#342

Post by CapricornNoble » Sat, Apr 20, 2019, 9:24 PM UTC

sundaeofshock wrote: post #315

Scarblac wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why?

Because they use for the basis of their offer. Most people don’t really know what the market is paying for the skills and experience, so they are already operating blindly. A 15-20% increase over current salary sounds like a lot, particularly if the potential employee is unaware that the market supports 50% (or more) above their current salary. This practice favors the employer so much that it is illegal in Californi…

>>This practice favors the employer so much that it is illegal in California (and a few other states) to ask for salary history.

That's interesting....when submitting resumes for US Federal government (GS) jobs, their resume guidelines include salary, hours worked, and points of contact for each position. I wonder how positions advertised in the State of California can be reconciled with what you've shared?

Re: We Don't Have a Talent Shortage. We Have a Sucker Shortage

#343

Post by throwaway9980 » Sat, Apr 20, 2019, 9:32 PM UTC

rubicon33 wrote: post #208

I feel like a broken record, but I'm going to say it anyways. There is NOT a shortage of software developers. That myth was developed by big tech, and pushed all the way up the ladder, to the top of government. The goal? Reduce labor costs. Big tech has always been 1 step ahead of the employee, just like coal, and metal working was. They saw the huge need for developers and realized their costs would increase unless…

I’m so tired of feeling constantly at war with the industry to justify my own existence. The business people desperately need you but they hate you for what they have to pay. They’re always thinking what if?

What if we could outsource this to some magic 3rd world slave mine? What if we could hire some recent graduates or interns instead? What if we could get someone on an H1B and chain them to the desk?

It’s the natural result of being labor. Don’t like it? Be an owner.

The only alternative I can think of is for software to become a true profession with licensing and standards. This makes a lot of sense in a world fraught with security risks and ethics concerns about the usage of data.

In the meantime, I’m getting ready to hang up the keyboard. All the dynamism and potential has been ground out of this career path. What’s left is crushing demands and compensation that just doesn’t cut it anymore.

Re: We Don't Have a Talent Shortage. We Have a Sucker Shortage

#344

Post by tigershark » Sat, Apr 20, 2019, 9:34 PM UTC

rubicon33 wrote: post #208

I feel like a broken record, but I'm going to say it anyways. There is NOT a shortage of software developers. That myth was developed by big tech, and pushed all the way up the ladder, to the top of government. The goal? Reduce labor costs. Big tech has always been 1 step ahead of the employee, just like coal, and metal working was. They saw the huge need for developers and realized their costs would increase unless…

I don’t think it works this way. Sure, you can hire cattle for almost nothing, but don’t expect them to produce much more than shit.

Re: We Don't Have a Talent Shortage. We Have a Sucker Shortage

#345

Post by dannypgh » Sat, Apr 20, 2019, 9:37 PM UTC

CapricornNoble wrote: post #342

sundaeofshock wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because they use for the basis of their offer. Most people don’t really know what the market is paying for the skills and experience, so they are already operating blindly. A 15-20% increase over current salary sounds like a lot, particularly if the potential employee is unaware that the market supports 50% (or more) above their current salary. This practice favors the employer so much that it is illegal in Californi…

>>This practice favors the employer so much that it is illegal in California (and a few other states) to ask for salary history. That's interesting....when submitting resumes for US Federal government (GS) jobs, their resume guidelines include salary, hours worked, and points of contact for each position. I wonder how positions advertised in the State of California can be reconciled with what you've shared?

I would imagine the federal government has enough transparency and process regarding pay scales to make this moot.

Re: We Don't Have a Talent Shortage. We Have a Sucker Shortage

#346

Post by bufferoverflow » Sat, Apr 20, 2019, 9:38 PM UTC

b212 wrote: post #164

revvx wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had the same thing happen to me a couple times. Long and tiring process. Blackboard, make a project, lots of dirty laundry about "long gone incompetent developers" that made the current system a giant mess. Lots of red flags but lots of promises including a large maximum salary, including bonuses and stock options. The final offer, however, was 60% of my current pay. Lower than the average for someone with my exper…

Is this an American thing? I live in Eastern Europe and make decent buck here (close to 5000 EUR/mo after taxes in a country where you can cover all expenses under 1000 EUR/mo). I never had any trouble getting quality work in my country but a few times I got approached by companies from the US and oh boy, weeks of tiring recrutation process and the pay was ALWAYS worse than local. I feel like they do it on purpose ma…

US salaries are on a whole new level when it comes to senior programmers. $200K+ base is normal, if you're good. $150/hr for consulting gigs is also normal if you're good.

So your $5K after taxes wouldn't even register on my radar.

Re: We Don't Have a Talent Shortage. We Have a Sucker Shortage

#347

Post by jodrellblank » Sat, Apr 20, 2019, 9:38 PM UTC

arthurcolle wrote: post #327

d4mi3n wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rule number 1, IMO, never discuss salary. I find listing your salary requirements before starting a process weeds out a lot of silly interviews. If you know your worth and have a goal for your salary, it is the most effective way I know to avoid dumb offers.

I agree with the rule and wish it was easier to put into practice. What I've noticed however, is that a lot of recruiters stonewall you if you don't tell them a number, or at least a range. They even say things like "Well I need to put something into this internal web app." It's super frustrating!

patio11's suggestion for this:

> Objection: “This form needs a number.”

> What you should think: “You’re lying to me to attempt to get me to compromise my negotiating position.”

> What you should say: “Give me git access and I’ll fix it in a jiffy! both people laugh No, seriously, speaking, I’m more concerned at the moment with discovering whether we’re a mutual fit… Oh, it’s physically impossible? Put in $1 then to get the ball rolling, and we’ll circle back to this later.”

https://www.kalzumeus.com/2012/01/23/salary-negotiation/

Re: We Don't Have a Talent Shortage. We Have a Sucker Shortage

#348

Post by troels » Sat, Apr 20, 2019, 9:39 PM UTC

pm90 wrote: post #81

robertAngst wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I imagine the people that would accept that are 'lifers'. Where they get comfy, rationalize that they know their job, and the company never has to spend more than 98k on this person for the next 35 years. Weirdly enough, it seems like Fortune 500 pays best for the brightest and they have them working on high level concepts and paying suppliers to perform the nitty gritty engineering. I don't quite understand the rati…

Its not that hard if you've worked in corporate america. Executives like to work with people that they "like", so its frequently people who went to similar schools, have a similar sense of humor, don't say stupid shit etc. Even if these people are totally ineffective and have no skills, they will keep getting hired. Then, they make use of the new labor markets, where you can just outsource everything and hire consult…

And because everyone knows this, a contractor can easily charge 2-3 times what an employee makes - aka what they're actually worth. The system works (Except of course for the employees)

Re: We Don't Have a Talent Shortage. We Have a Sucker Shortage

#349

Post by bufferoverflow » Sat, Apr 20, 2019, 9:40 PM UTC

Drdrdrq wrote: post #276

mkurz wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you tell us which Eastern European country do you live? What are your skills? Thanks!

Was curious myself, based in on his other comments, it's Poland.

Yeah, but then you have to breathe in coal. Dirtiest air in the EU.

Re: We Don't Have a Talent Shortage. We Have a Sucker Shortage

#350

Post by ptmcc » Sat, Apr 20, 2019, 9:41 PM UTC

loopbit wrote: post #195

SamuelAdams wrote: post #11

It sounds to me that this might be a problem with startups. I've been working in the enterprise space for 5 years, and I've never come across this sort of hiring. The last job I applied for was open from February 1 - March 1. After that, they pulled it down and began interviewing candidates. Six weeks later, I have an offer letter for a specific role with a well-negotiated compensation package. Personally if HR treat…

You might have not experienced it and if you didn't, congratulations! I'm happy for you (honestly!). But these problems exist all across the board. My last job hunt (signed a new contract just a few weeks ago) has taken me 3 months and I've seen all of the issues OP (and some of the comments) mentions, not only in startups, but also in fortune 500 companies and everything in between (including quite a few companies i…

> I've probably sent about 60-70 cv's and most of them have gotten me at least a phone interview (about 50? I lost count but in the document I was using to keep track of open processes I have 30 companies).

Genuine question: why are you applying to so many companies? Are you just coming out of school or unemployment?

That seems like a ton of work to juggle and you can't possibly be interested in them all. In this hot market it seems like you should be able to be a lot pickier, especially if you've already got a job.

In my most recent round of "should I get a new job" I only applied with 3 good companies that I knew I was interested in and even that felt like a lot to juggle on top of a day job.