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Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

nytimes.com

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Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#341

Post by vkou »

hazeii wrote: post #322
paxys wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Brexit itself can of course be delivered, but the larger promise sold to voters - that the country would be able to negotiate favorable trade deals, that it would directly result in increased NHS funding, that it would lead to reduced immigration without affecting free movement for workers, that customs and border control would be seamless, that European court of justice would stop having jurisdiction in UK affairs e…

Indeed; a lot of people subscribe to the view that the vote delivered the 'incorrect' result because one side was more effective at lying than the other side. Very difficult to know where to draw a line; my feeling is that even if history shows the people were wrong the government should not be allowed to (directly or indirectly) do something other than what they were elected to do - i.e. serve the people (on a plate…

> Very difficult to know where to draw a line; my feeling is that even if history shows the people were wrong the government should not be allowed to (directly or indirectly) do something other than what they were elected to do - i.e. serve the people (on a plate, it seems).

Governments do this all the time, though. Campaign promises are often just that.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#342

Post by solidsnack9000 »

pseudolus wrote: post #317

One of the effects of Brexit that is overlooked by people outside of the UK is the effect that it will have on the Union itself. In 2014 during the Scottish independence referendum those favouring remaining in the UK prevailed by about 11%. One of the strongest arguments made by those who favoured remaining was that an independent Scotland would not accede to the EU automatically, according to the EU itself, but woul…

By Union what is meant here is, the United Kingdom?

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#343

Post by sparkie »

paganel wrote: post #308
mandeepj wrote: post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you cannot force the EU to accept an unfavorable trade deal source? The deal failed inside UK parliament and not at EU.

Juncker tweeted about an hour ago that “time is almost up” for the UK. That means that the EU won’t sweeten the proposed deal.

They will make concessions. I'll put money on it.

The UK leaving with no deal would be the beginning of the end of the EU. There is already growing anti-EU sentiment in Italy (4th largest economy in the block), Hungary, Austria, Poland. The UK leaving could set off a chain reaction which would either end the EU project or drastically reduce its size.

The EU simply can't afford to have the UK leave completely, because any measure of success it might have as an independent nation will compel other members to take the idea seriously too.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#344

Post by philwelch »

cm2187 wrote: post #165
gonehome wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if the consequences are instability or large scale war?

War between who and who?

Not necessarily "large scale", but it's hard to leave the EU customs union without introducing a hard border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland, and specifically not having a hard border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland was part of the peace agreement that ended the Troubles.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#345

Post by ivraatiems »

hanoz wrote: post #334

The deal was the worst of all worlds and deliberately designed to fail. The whole project since the referendum has been to work towards the palatable introduction of a second referendum whilst spending the intervening time demonstrating the impossibility of a good deal and the awfulness of no deal. We will now proceed to run down the clock towards the no deal 'cliff edge' and as the precipice looms go to the EU askin…

I read your post as quite confident, but a lot of people were equally confident that the original referendum would be a strong Remain victory. What are you basing these predictions on?

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#346

Post by vkou »

thefounder wrote: post #282
mrec wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Donald Tusk has repeatedly offered "Canada +++" to Great Britain. (Not to the United Kingdom, as part of their "we're going to annex Northern Ireland as a punishment beating" approach.) > UK still needs to respect the EU regulations WHEN EXPORTING TO THE EU, yes. The ~90% of UK businesses that don't do any trade with the EU do not. Those trading with the rest of the world outside the EU - a majority of the UK's trade…

What makes the UK follow EU regulation when they export outside of EU?

A five-hundred million person first-world market on their doorstep.

If you want your business to say no to that, go ahead - by all means. Most businesses won't, though.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#347

Post by mattlondon »

andrewmcwatters wrote: post #332
siquick wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It wasn't 52% of the country though. The voter turnout was 72% and that excludes the millions of under 18s who will be affected by this the most.

Children should not be able to vote.

16 year olds can get married, join the military, work fulltime and pay income tax.

Why shouldn't they also be allowed to vote?

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#348

Post by dijit »

mattmanser wrote: post #313
DanBC wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Tea?" "OK, go on." "There's no kettle so I'm burning the house down to heat water." "Now wait a…" "Shut up, I've a clear mandate for tea." https://twitter.com/LouiseJJohnson/status/829617043582369792

There's elsewhere in the thread where people discuss knowing Leave voters and just how strongly they feel about it. Some comments are even talking about civil war on the mainland if we back out of it. I feel the British media have gone back to hiding significant swathes of the UK from being shown on screen or print/online, so us more liberal types are deluding ourselves that there's some sort of consensus about a 2nd…

It’s almost comical (if it wasn’t so pathetically sad) how divided and polarised the country is.

My mother and her entire extended friend circles are aggressively pro-leave, even tofting sound-bites at me.

A little further south/east (mum lives in Coventry) in Kettering my friend is pro-leave, but not aggressively so, his soon-to-be wife is remain, but they tout their points and agree to disagree. Further south in London people are so pro-remain it’s unfathomable that anyone would leave, if you want to leave then you’re probably very stupid.

I’m pro-remain (although I started as pro-leave before I tried to look into arguments to support me and found - very clearly - that I was wrong) but the country is so passionately divided that I can’t help but think that there really is going to be some kind of rioting in the near future.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#349

Post by Cursuviam »

skykooler wrote: post #221

> The environment secretary, Michael Gove, was equally dramatic in a morning radio interview, warning lawmakers that “if we don’t vote for this deal tonight, in the words of Jon Snow, winter is coming,” a reference to “Game of Thrones.” Err, that was Ned Stark who said that, not Jon Snow.

It's their family motto, so many Starks have said it

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#350

Post by 794CD01 »

Traster wrote: post #236
kodablah wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 2. This is controversial, due to the majority of the populace in general not desiring to leave the EU, but not voting as such individually. Also an American, but from the outside I don't see how a majority desire can be so accurately determined beyond a vote. > Some portions of the UK [...] are strongly aganst this voting result. This I definitely see from the loudest. So strongly that the vote has been tarnished e…

On point 2, there's quite a complex answer. Firstly, the vote was basically "Leave or Remain". Remain meant stay in the EU on the current known terms. Leave meant... well: You could leave the EU but remain a part of the single market for trade (this was promised during the referendum), you could leave but have a custom arrangement with the EU like Switzerland which means you retain EU law but have no vote (this was a…

If only god had created runoff voting.
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