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Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

nytimes.com

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Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#311

Post by arethuza »

balabaster wrote: post #293
arethuza wrote: post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"she is the most important person in the United Kingdom." I believe members of the UK armed forces would probably dispute that.

Who are governed ultimately by the Prime Minister. So they do what she tells them to, ultimately making her the most important person.

Actually, I believe the armed forces of the UK actually take an oath of allegiance to the ruling monarch rather than to the state/government - I did think this didn't mean very much but I have raised the point with a serving army officer and he was rather insistent that they take it seriously:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oath_of_Allegiance_(United_Kin...

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#312

Post by [deleted] »

pilsetnieks wrote: post #261
lizknope wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Where are the people who initially brought in Brexit- why are they not supporting May? They resigned. Boris Johnson the Foreign Secretary resigned. David Davis who was literally the "Brexit minister" resigned. https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/theresa-mays-gov... Here are more people who resigned. https://news.sky.com/story/the-ministers-who-have-quit-over-... My view is that these people lied to the publ…

> Once it got to the hard work of making it happen they realized how awful the deal would be and how the economy would be harmed. Because they didn't want their name attached to it they resigned. One could argue that they didn't expect the vote to pass at all, and did it to gain favor with their constituency - to be able to say they "tried to leave the EU but alas." They knew their promises were untenable, yet they m…

[deleted]

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#313

Post by mattmanser »

DanBC wrote: post #89
hacker_9 wrote: post #63

To be honest this is just a repeat of two years ago, apart from now it's May not getting her way instead of Cameron. The whole thing is such a colossal failure that they need to just to give up and stop acting like this is the 'will of the people' - as if people don't change their mind when presented with the facts or something.

"Tea?" "OK, go on." "There's no kettle so I'm burning the house down to heat water." "Now wait a…" "Shut up, I've a clear mandate for tea." https://twitter.com/LouiseJJohnson/status/829617043582369792

There's elsewhere in the thread where people discuss knowing Leave voters and just how strongly they feel about it. Some comments are even talking about civil war on the mainland if we back out of it.

I feel the British media have gone back to hiding significant swathes of the UK from being shown on screen or print/online, so us more liberal types are deluding ourselves that there's some sort of consensus about a 2nd referendum.

I still remember sitting there the day after the referendum and thinking "these people on TV are like they're from my home town. I've never seen people like this on TV before".

I haven't seen them again.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#314

Post by DFHippie »

skykooler wrote: post #221

> The environment secretary, Michael Gove, was equally dramatic in a morning radio interview, warning lawmakers that “if we don’t vote for this deal tonight, in the words of Jon Snow, winter is coming,” a reference to “Game of Thrones.” Err, that was Ned Stark who said that, not Jon Snow.

Don't all the Starks say that? Those are their "words".

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#315

Post by PaulRobinson »

beefield wrote: post #224
PaulRobinson wrote: post #142

Here's what happens next: - A motion of no confidence has been tabled and will be debated and voted on tomorrow - If the motion carries (i.e. the Government loses): 1. Theresa May must resign as Prime Minister 2. There can be a 14 day window in which a new government is formed, which must be approved by a motion of confidence. This is likely to be waived 3. There will be a general election. Theresa May will remain le…

> It will leave 17m people in an absolute rage, and they have already murdered one MP. It'll get worse. So, the decision making is kept as hostage by 17m angry people who won't accept that their side winning was based on pretty much fraudulent arguments? Maybe, just maybe, it could be in the long run worth paying the price of their anger and show that the modern democratic society has some backbone against these kind…

I can see that. However, it's just not how we try and do things in the UK - major policy changes have been caused by rioting through history, and governments do what they can to minimise it.

Remember, we don't have a codified constitution. A system such as our requires trying to find middle ground consensus above all else.

The people who want to Leave are way, way, way angrier than those who want to Remain. It's easier to just let them discover the lie in their deathbeds in 20 years...

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#316

Post by chillacy »

CodeGlitch wrote: post #111
chillacy wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is it the best system, and how do you even measure that? I personally like living in a constitutional democracy but the past 100 years has shown us plenty of failed democracies and successful dictatorships (Korea, Taiwan, Singapore). It seems to me that one of the downsides of democracy is promoting short term thinking. Another is that policies are only as good as the population is educated (US climate change, br…

"Another is that policies are only as good as the population is educated (US climate change, brexit)" I do believe you just called all Brixiteers stupid? I know loads of them who are highly educated :D Actually it was the poorer regions of the country which voted to leave - that's been explained in detail elsewhere.

It seems to me that brexit was for some people a populist movement which put national pride ahead of economic interests. (We don't need the EU to do trade agreements, the British Empire ruled the world back in the day!).

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#317

Post by pseudolus »

One of the effects of Brexit that is overlooked by people outside of the UK is the effect that it will have on the Union itself. In 2014 during the Scottish independence referendum those favouring remaining in the UK prevailed by about 11%. One of the strongest arguments made by those who favoured remaining was that an independent Scotland would not accede to the EU automatically, according to the EU itself, but would have to apply as a new member (in part the fear was that other regions of Europe such as Catalonia would follow Scotland's example). Now in 2019 the Scots who favoured remaining in the UK so as to maintain EU membership are being told they'll have a hard exit. If there's a replay of the 2014 referendum in the future there's no assurance that Scots will choose to remain, with Brexit increasing the possibility of a disintegration of the Union with only England, Wales and Northern Ireland remaining. Over the horizon it's even possible that Northern Ireland (given the appropriate demographic changes) will peel off and join up with the Irish Republic.

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#318

Post by balabaster »

arethuza wrote: post #311
balabaster wrote: post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who are governed ultimately by the Prime Minister. So they do what she tells them to, ultimately making her the most important person.

Actually, I believe the armed forces of the UK actually take an oath of allegiance to the ruling monarch rather than to the state/government - I did think this didn't mean very much but I have raised the point with a serving army officer and he was rather insistent that they take it seriously: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oath_of_Allegiance_(United_Kin...

Interesting, thanks

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#319

Post by blibble »

xienze wrote: post #134
gonehome wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if the consequences are instability or large scale war?

Well, what if? You're essentially arguing that if our benevolent overlords decide that the democratic process might result in something unfavorable that they should do the wise thing and ignore the will of the people.

this is the general principle behind the EU Commission: that of a technocracy

the head of the Commission, Jean Claude Juncker, on the 2005 French referendum on the Lisbon Treaty:

"If it's a Yes, we will say 'on we go', and if it's a No we will say 'we continue'."

the result being that the French rejected it, but it was adopted regardless

Re: Brexit Deal Fails in Parliament

#320

Post by cryptonector »

SolaceQuantum wrote: post #99

I'll be the first to admit: I'm an American. I fundamentally do not understand Brexit. I understand the following timeline: 1. A largely disseminated, nation-wide vote occurs, bolstered by nationalist sentiment, that the EU is bad for the UK. This vote results in a conclusion that UK should leave the EU. 2. This is controversial, due to the majority of the populace in general not desiring to leave the EU, but not vot…

May hasn't been held responsible for this, yet. She's survived an internal party vote of no confidence, and she is clearly confident that her government will survive tomorrow's parliamentary vote of no confidence.

Right now the PM (and the EU) gets to go back to the drawing board. And Parliament gets to try to force various things, such as a second referendum, or a delay to brexit (which the EU would have to acquiesce to). May can resist Parliament for a while, if she wants.

Obviously I won't try to predict the outcome of anything. I'm not in that business.

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