Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Mumbai bans plastic bags, bottles, and single-use plastic containers

theguardian.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

341–350 of 362 posts

Re: Mumbai bans plastic bags, bottles, and single-use plastic containers

#341

Post by piyush_soni »

hw wrote: post #292
piyush_soni wrote: post #156

Again, nice objective but like demonetization, it's a decision without any planning/preparation, and the terms and conditions are changing almost everyday. This is from today (small shop owners might be given relief from this rule): https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/mumbai/plastic-ban-... They should have first researched and offered cheap environment friendly alternatives before doing the same. According to f…

The decision to ban plastics has been communicated for a few months. It's only in the last few days that the law went into effect, but businesses have had time to plan. One could argue if the 3 months notice was enough, but people shouldn't be caught by surprise. Wet food is a challenge in delivery. There are wax lined paper cups that are more environmental friendly, although not entirely eco safe.

Most of the 'wax lined' paper cups you're talking about are plastic coated paper cups in reality, and the actual wax lined ones are very bad for one's health.

So you are saying businesses had a whole 3 months time to find a reasonably priced plastic alternative that has the same properties as plastic (insoluble in liquid, durability, flexibility, and lightweight nature) but are eco-friendly and bio-degradable, which is a problem researchers of the world have no solution to? :) . In my opinion it was also government's job to suggest those cheap alternatives, or even give subsidy on them at least for the time being.

There is a reason rest of the world hasn't done it so far, because when they take some decision, it's backed by proper research by experts including suggesting the alternatives.

Re: Mumbai bans plastic bags, bottles, and single-use plastic containers

#342

Post by piyush_soni »

shripadk wrote: post #259
okmokmz wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really hope this is sarcasm... You think it's appropriate for every employee to be searched before entering a facility because there might be a "terror attack"? How many IT workers are there in the country, how many attacks have occurred in IT offices, and how many attacks have been prevented by searching employees bags? Giving up personal liberties and freedoms out of unsubstantiated fears based on a few fringe ca…

How do you prevent employees from leaving with company data if one copies all the sensitive data onto a pen drive? Does security check the pen drives too? It's actually ridiculous to cast aspersion on the security when their job is to prevent threats. > You think it's appropriate for every employee to be searched before entering a facility because there might be a "terror attack"? How many IT workers are there in the…

In our office bags were already not checked while coming in, but only while going out (including every two-wheeler owner's little trunk). And yes, I don't know why you find it so surprising, but any kind of flash/pen drive or storage device was one of the main things they were looking at - and if one was accidentally found in the employee's bag, they had orders to take it away. So yes, there main concern was data theft by employees (and may be small and big electronic devices as well).

Your links have no connection to the daily employees' bags getting checked (even the ones who've been working in the company for literally 20 years). They are all about terror 'threats' from outside. Of course outsiders need to be checked, not employees. In fact I can find no record of an IT employee in India bringing any terror causing instrument to his/her own office, ever.

Yes, the cars of our employees are still checked for safety while entering in the office premises (for bomb threat), and I don't have any problem with that.

Re: Mumbai bans plastic bags, bottles, and single-use plastic containers

#343

Post by shankr »

pault wrote: post #111
shankr wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have heard similar stories from other people who visited USA. So it does seem to be a normal behavior.

As a USA-ian, I've never seen this and would be appalled if I did.

This was a first-hand experience of a German guy who lived as a exchange student in Florida. His host family would serve food in plastic plates to avoid doing dishes.

Re: Mumbai bans plastic bags, bottles, and single-use plastic containers

#344

Post by antpls »

dd36 wrote: post #254
riantogo wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Based on jdietrich's input, it is then a waste processing problem and not a plastic problem. Tackling the symptom in this case seems net more harmful.

By his logic, we should plastic wrap every vegetable and fruit. That is nonsensical. Humans don't dispose of things properly. That's a fact. Creating more plastic waste will create more plastic pollution. It's far easier to not create the waste in the first place. And there are ways to reduce CO2 that don't involve creating exponentially more plastic waste. Again, producers don't plastic wrap cucumbers to save CO2. T…

> Humans don't dispose of things properly. That's a fact. Creating more plastic waste will create more plastic pollution.

Are you implying we should create less humans in a first place?

> It's far easier to not create the waste in the first place. And there are ways to reduce CO2 that don't involve creating exponentially more plastic waste.

If it is easy, then why aren't you a billionaire already?

More seriously, the solution is probably a combination of awareness about over consumption (reducing the production of waste), and investments into better waste management for the concerned countries.

Re: Mumbai bans plastic bags, bottles, and single-use plastic containers

#345

Post by deaps »

thecrazyone wrote: post #324
lurquer wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's correct. Indians litter. It's a cultural thing, I guess. Filthiest place on earth. (Don't downvoted me unless you have been to India.) It's sad that the solution is to ban plastic bags and the like... I'm not against the solution. But, the problem is Indians who think nothing of tossing trash out into the street and would be genuinely confused if you suggested they clean up after themselves.

I'm from India. ## Problem 1: The problem is not culture, but of poor govt. I as a responsible person want to throw this wrapper, there is no dustbin you'll find for kilometers on end sometimes. Do you expect me to carry the wrapper back to my home or carry a small dustbin along with me every time? ## Problem 2: You would've noticed, most Indian homes are pretty clean (within reason and corresponding to income level)…

> Do you expect me to carry the wrapper back to my home or carry a small dustbin along with me every time?

Yes...That's what I would do, and I don't even remotely consider myself an 'environmentally-conscious' person whatsoever.

Re: Mumbai bans plastic bags, bottles, and single-use plastic containers

#346

Post by cptskippy »

thecrazyone wrote: post #326
cptskippy wrote: post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with your reasoning is that it's based on your cultural and community experience and not that of the typical Indian. You're considering the impact of that law on your lifestyle and assuming it will impact all others in the same way. How many people in India are buying their vegetables in plastic wrap from the big box grocery store? According to unicef, 50% of the population in India defecate in the open.…

I'm an Indian and your statements are ignorant and myopic. Let me explain. Littering is in every country not just India. Certain countries deal with it in a better way. Banning something doesn't evaporate it's demand. Like, people litter because there are not dustbins (at least not often enough) on the street in India. Open defecation is unrelated to this issue. Main reason open defecation happens is because there is…

> Littering is in every country not just India. Certain countries deal with it in a better way.

Most deal with it by passing laws a municipal levels of government making it illegal in conjunction with providing refuse bins. Only one municipality in India has done this.

> Open defecation is unrelated to this issue.

It's actually very much related, you state that people litter due to lack of refuse bins and openly defecate because of the lack of toilets. The reason I mention it is that while India does not have national laws around littering, they do have them for open defecation. Since the Swachh Bharat mission was launched in 2014 there have been significant reductions in the % of the population that openly defecate yet even in homes with access to toilets they aren't seeing 100% usage. In homes with government provided toilets they've seen upwards of 40% of people still choosing to openly defecate and of those a large percentage say they prefer the openness of defecating outdoors. It is most definitely a behavioral and cultural issue.

Littering out of convenience is cultural/behavioral and not due to any failing of the government. If it were purely down to a lack of refuse receptacles then how do you explain the state of most venues after an event? I've never been to a movie theater, music venue, or athletics stadium that did not have copious refuse bins to collect trash and yet people still litter. To further drive home the fact that is indeed culture look no further than the Japanese who have cleanliness so culturally ingrained that they stick around after World Cup matches to help clean the stadium.

Re: Mumbai bans plastic bags, bottles, and single-use plastic containers

#347

Post by friedButter »

smdz wrote: post #172

The real reason to ban plastic so strictly in Mumbai is because plastic garbage chokes Mumbai's drainage systems and storm water system. And given the city's population and usage of plastic, the chokes are quite severe during the monsoon (rainy season) when it rains heavily. It is so severe that chokes can lead to extreme flooding and loss of life when it rains heavily and there is an onset of high-tide. The water so…

> And given the city's population and usage of plastic, the chokes are quite severe during the monsoon (rainy season) when it rains heavily

Didnt the city even flood 2-3 days after the ban, when the govt was in full enforcement mode?

Re: Mumbai bans plastic bags, bottles, and single-use plastic containers

#348

Post by riffraff »

slazaro wrote: post #217
riffraff wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

for some things sure e.g. Italy has had mandatory biodegradable shopping bags for a few years, but for other things, like coke bottles, it seems harder. I mean, you can enforce glass bottles but that does not seem like a major improvement.

Glass bottles can be reused, like Germany does, or Spain did (sadly not any more).

plastic bottles can be recycled, but the problem, as I understood it, is thrash not being handled properly, so the fact that you have plastic bottles in rivers or shard of glass bottles does not change much.

Re: Mumbai bans plastic bags, bottles, and single-use plastic containers

#349

Post by thinkcontext »

thecrazyone wrote: post #327
thinkcontext wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

City services are expensive, why spend more money picking up trash, cleaning waterways, unclogging sewers, etc when you can do less of that? Particularly in developing countries which have scarce resources. My city (Washington, DC) opted for a 5 cent tax on plastic bags. This caused use of them to drop 80% and been considered a huge success.

Because demand for plastic bags or similar substances doesn't evaporate. You're using a different substance instead of plastic, if you ban it. Using paper implies cutting down more trees, and paper doesn't have all the awesome properties that plastic has: high tensile strength per weight, impermeable to air/moisture, lightweight, etc.

Plastic bags are still available, they just cost a nickel now. I can't say I've noticed any more paper bags around, can't think of a store I shop at regularly where they are even available. I believe people are using reusable bags instead.

Re: Mumbai bans plastic bags, bottles, and single-use plastic containers

#350

Post by justin66 »

protonfish wrote: post #117
sschueller wrote: post #64

I think this is a good step but what a lot of countries lack is also proper disposal of trash. Landfills are a poor solution, better are clean trash burning facilities[1] that also produce energy as well as proper pre sorting. China is building the largest in the world which is to open in 2020. [2] [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/13/science/earth/13trash.htm... [2] https://www.sciencealert.com/china-is-building-t…

The "ban single-use plastic" hype train seems illogical to me. Having your city littered with garbage is a government services problem - they should provide convenient waste disposal receptacles, empty them frequently to be disposed of properly, and give citations to litterers. We should not be cheering this short-sighted law. I also don't understand why plastic in a landfill is all that bad. The fact that it is biod…

> The fact that it is biodegradable

...is something you just made up.

Most plastics aren't, and some of the ones that are marketed as biodegradable need to be put in a high-temperature bioreactor or something equally ridiculous in order to break down in a useful timeframe.

> I also don't understand why plastic in a landfill is all that bad.

Some portion of everything placed in a landfill will get in the water, but this is particularly true of lightweight and slow-to-degrade plastics.

> Plastics use significantly less energy in production and transportation ... With an eye toward AGW, how can paper packaging and burning refuse be seen as a responsible choice?

Incinerating garbage is an energy source in places like Norway.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2013/jun/14/norway-w...

Post reply on HN