Canada facing ‘brain drain’ as tech talent leaves for Silicon Valley • Hacker News Board

Re: Canada facing ‘brain drain’ as tech talent leaves for Silicon Valley

#341

Post by kingofhdds » Fri, May 04, 2018, 9:56 PM UTC

Jare wrote: post #275

ng12 wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it was easy for you it's because you're economically desirable and culturally compatible. Canada only accepts immigrants who have a high probability of financial success and "integration", along with a limited number of refugees who have sponsors. The USA on the other hand has a relatively open employer-backed system in addition to the wealth/education-agnostic quota system.

I don't know, one of my euro immigrant friends in Vancouver was a window cleaner. IIRC she basically showed up at the border with some education certificate (some non-fancy arts degree), her intent to make a living and proof she could sustain herself for a few months; definitely not sponsored by a tech company or anything like that. A few years later she was a citizen. OTOH I know two very capable (although not "rock…

I'm pretty sure there are some important details missed in your story, because you either don't know them, or don't understand why they are important. My European, but non-EU, friend is a software engineer with certified knowledge of both En, and Fr, clean records, and all that stuff, decided to go to Canada for some not particularly economically rational reasons (like love of northern nature). This year it's going to be the 5th year since he applied to Can immigration service, and he still waits for a decision. Meanwhile, a number of his coworkers landed in US with quite poor English, and worse qualifications.

Re: Canada facing ‘brain drain’ as tech talent leaves for Silicon Valley

#342

Post by walshemj » Fri, May 04, 2018, 9:56 PM UTC

whack wrote: post #66

Canada is in a really tough spot here. I've always admired Canadian culture/values, and in the abstract, would love to live in Canada one day. However, as a Software developer, the compensation and opportunities that one can find in SF/Seattle/NYC dwarf anything in Canada. Until this changes, Canada is always going to lose its brightest engineers, which will in turn worsen the problem even further. Some solutions I c…

No Canadian companies need to pay more. I suspect that Canada has inherited from the UK the attitude that STEM (apart from the Medical profession) is basically for greasy engineers who shouldn't be allowed to get to above themselves.

Re: Canada facing ‘brain drain’ as tech talent leaves for Silicon Valley

#343

Post by nautilus12 » Fri, May 04, 2018, 9:59 PM UTC

This is really surprising, you'd think the opposite would be happening by now. I dont know why people are still putting up with paying silicon valley prices.

Re: Canada facing ‘brain drain’ as tech talent leaves for Silicon Valley

#344

Post by motohagiography » Fri, May 04, 2018, 9:59 PM UTC

There is a peculiar cultural issue where many Canadians think of work as being granted a job as a reward for their virtuousness instead of being part of a market. You can hear it every time someone complains how qualified they are but unhappy with their lot. As though business were some great paternal force that gave out jobs and higher salaries for good behavior.

When you view this ostensible sense of fairness as entitlement to rewards for having merely complied with social norms, in addition to a general suspicion of deal making, it becomes clear why they will work for less.

There is also a structural problem in Canadian tech where much of the real money is made by "consulting," companies who exist as the result of it being difficult to fire and lay off employees, and the delta of high marginal income vs. corporate tax rates. These companies take a %50 or more cut of a contractor's pay to insulate employers from the regulatory and tax risks of keeping and firing real employees. That is, to maintain public entitlements instead of private ones. Companies still pay top dollar for talent, just not to the talent.

So long as you aren't a busybody about what the Jones's are up to, Canada has a great quality of life. Unfortunately for Globe writers, that temptation appears to be too great.

Re: Canada facing ‘brain drain’ as tech talent leaves for Silicon Valley

#345

Post by bgirard » Fri, May 04, 2018, 9:59 PM UTC

mitjak wrote: post #149

I'm surprised at the lack of answers that suggest a positive opinion about working in Canada. I personally love the health care and other social benefits, the winters, the multi-cultural city (Toronto), the people, and the lack of gun ownership, among many other things. SV strikes me as a monoculture. I don't want to live at my workplace. The opportunities are fewer but there's also higher demand. My workplace has be…

As an expat Canadian working for a large tech company the health care here is light years ahead -when- you have excellent heath insurance.

Re: Canada facing ‘brain drain’ as tech talent leaves for Silicon Valley

#346

Post by graeme » Fri, May 04, 2018, 10:02 PM UTC

gagabity wrote: post #326

Well this is scary, I am thinking of immigrating to Canada and get myself a Tech job (Mobile Dev), its between Canada & Germany right now and I think I have a better chance in Canada because I dont need to learn German to thrive and the permanent residence has much more reasonable maintanance terms once you get it.

You should be fine. This article is saying you'd earn even more in the US. But, Canadian tech workers do quite well compared to the median canadian. It's just compared to US tech salaries that a large gap exists.

I don't think Germany has higher tech salaries.

Re: Canada facing ‘brain drain’ as tech talent leaves for Silicon Valley

#347

Post by lainga » Fri, May 04, 2018, 10:03 PM UTC

rlanday wrote: post #257

lainga wrote: post #30

Question - now that Amazon is bringing "3000 jobs" to Vancouver, are they going to be paying wages consistent with their US employees, or with (or just above) the local market rate?

Typically companies that want to open a remote office pay people based on the local market conditions (although Amazon might set their pay to be try to be towards the top of the market, so they could still end up paying better than other companies in the area).

I certainly hope so, or it really will be just a holding zone for people heading across the border to Seattle.

Re: Canada facing ‘brain drain’ as tech talent leaves for Silicon Valley

#348

Post by rlabrecque » Fri, May 04, 2018, 10:03 PM UTC

xenihn wrote: post #313

eloff wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do remote work for this reason. Although I did manage to recently find a contractor position that pays competitively here in Canada, I find that very rarely. If you do remote contract work, mostly for US or Swiss companies, you can make 2-3x a top Canadian salary. Just throwing that out there as an alternative to moving to the US.

Can I ask what sector and languages/frameworks you use?

Not the person you're responding to, but C++ for me. I make a normal Seattle salary while living in Toronto. Which after conversion seems to put me higher than people with 3x my experience in much better paying sectors than I'm in... It's stupid, and it sucks, I wish my company was local, I don't prefer remote. I do much prefer making literally double than I'd make locally though. :/

Re: Canada facing ‘brain drain’ as tech talent leaves for Silicon Valley

#349

Post by graeme » Fri, May 04, 2018, 10:04 PM UTC

motohagiography wrote: post #344

There is a peculiar cultural issue where many Canadians think of work as being granted a job as a reward for their virtuousness instead of being part of a market. You can hear it every time someone complains how qualified they are but unhappy with their lot. As though business were some great paternal force that gave out jobs and higher salaries for good behavior. When you view this ostensible sense of fairness as en…

How are the consulting companies legal? From what I've read, it sounds like the workers are really employees.

Re: Canada facing ‘brain drain’ as tech talent leaves for Silicon Valley

#350

Post by neilk » Fri, May 04, 2018, 10:05 PM UTC

TulliusCicero wrote: post #333

neilk wrote: post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Canadian here who worked in the Valley for ~7 years, and currently works for a US-based startup remotely. You're absolutely right that the culture of respecting changemakers is not as present in Canada. But the SFBA is the world leader here. There probably isn't any place on earth that's more optimistic about innovators. I don't think this is a culture thing, exactly. It's just that everyone who became rich in the SF…

The US has a fairly high tolerance for weirdness and novelty in general because of its extreme fixation on individualism. Especially so when you compare it to most other high income countries like Japan, Germany, Norway, Switzerland, etc.

People say that a lot but I'm not so sure. Half of my American friends had to move to the SFBA not just for a job, but because nobody understood them back home, or they'd be literally persecuted for being who they were. And these aren't always tiny rural towns.

The coastal cities embrace some kinds of individualism for sure.