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Bitcoin is fiat money, too

economist.com

341–350 of 355 posts

Re: Bitcoin is fiat money, too

#341
post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Same can be said of every technology. Can that technology double number of dollars in the world right now?

No, but the Federal Reserve can.

The probability of Federal Reserve doubling US dollars in one day is lower than the probability of bitcoins doubling because of a software bug.

Re: Bitcoin is fiat money, too

#342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not about need. If it is profitable to mine, professional miners will exist. You can't create an incentive structure and then call it a "bug" when somebody optimizes for it.

So you can create a disincentive for non-user mining. What would be the downside? This is supposed to be a distributed system.

What kind of discouragement do you have in mind?

Re: Bitcoin is fiat money, too

#343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, that's the distinction. With Bitcoin, a codebase prevails if it attracts enough miners, merchants and users. Those parties in aggregate have "fiat power". It's arguable that fiat power for each state similarly reflects preferences of banks, merchants and users. However, some of us doubt that money policy typically favors users. With government fiat, forking isn't really possible, without a revolution, no matter…

So you're telling me that government money, where everyone gets a say in policy through republican institutions, is worse than a system where the most wealthy users get more control of the currency. Um, okay. I guess the oligarchy is more explicit in the cryptocurrency.

>where everyone gets a say in policy through republican institutions

You clearly have no idea how money is "created" or how the Federal Reserve works.

Re: Bitcoin is fiat money, too

#344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you can create a disincentive for non-user mining. What would be the downside? This is supposed to be a distributed system.

What kind of discouragement do you have in mind?

One could limit share of hash power. Perhaps by IP address. Or through blockchain links to previously-solved blocks.

The Tor Network, for example, has mechanisms for excluding bad participants. There's the bad exit flag, for relays that snoop traffic. Relays that harvest onion hostnames get banned. So do relays that attempt traffic analysis.

There's even a policy of discouraging new relays in commonly-used AS. There's no exclusion mechanism. But I don't see why there couldn't be, if there were too much concentration.

Edit: See https://trac.torproject.org/projects/tor/wiki/doc/ReportingB...

Re: Bitcoin is fiat money, too

#345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ethereum's upcoming Proof of Stake mechanism is supposed to put more power into the hands of investors compared to miners.

That doesn't really help. Early adopters get huge sums of ETH compared to those who join after the price rises. The distribution of coins is massively unequal.

In the short term, yes. Not in the long run as early investors sell their coins.

Re: Bitcoin is fiat money, too

#346
post #269
post #190

Fundamentally, Bitcoin is software eating the Fed-Bank-Retail ecosystem. The Fed governance is replaced by code. The banking utility is replaced by miners. I think the march of bitcoin is actually a better example of how AI is taking over the world. People in AI are fascinated by AGI - but the bitcoin ecosystem is actually a real world example of how AI will take over the world. Specifically, the march of AI won't ha…

Bitcoin can easily be stopped by governments, at least in countries that are not failed states. All they have to do is declare it illegal, and enforce the law. It would be trivial for them to shut down exchanges. Without that, it would hard, and expensive, to convert to fiat. Legit businesses would not accept Bitcoin. The only uses would be black market, and I doubt they would continue using bitcoin on the darknet ma…

The black and grey markets represent nearly 1/3 of the world's economy. They cannot be shut down. The war on drugs is an excellent example of this.

Re: Bitcoin is fiat money, too

#347
post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And that’s why the fed ensures we have a mildly inflationary currency. If it deflated spending would drop, cutting the velocity of money, and cutting out economic growth.

"If it deflated spending would drop" That statements not a given. If it were so, people would not use credit cards.

That’s interesting, I’ve never thought about credit cards as a sort of deflationary virtual currency.

Re: Bitcoin is fiat money, too

#348

Bitcoin is not fiat. Fiat means "by decree" or "by authority". Fiat money is money that is decreed into existence by some authority, that is, the government. This is done through legal tender laws. Bitcoin is not created by the enactment of some law by some authority. Fiat does not mean "by consensus", or "by mathematics". Saying code is decree, and therefor fiat, is sloppy thinking. Bitcoin may have much in common w…

Oh, the pedantry. Clearly the point is that it behaves _just like_ fiat in the specific ways mentioned.

It's -- you know -- an element of literary style.

Re: Bitcoin is fiat money, too

#349
post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Distilled to its roots, the Fed has been manufacturing “savings” from thin air for the better part of a decade. When the financial crisis hit in 2008, American savings were depleted, so the Fed had to step in to produce savings (to finance huge government deficits). Now the Fed is attempting to remove that “savings” at a time when: 1) The private sector is experiencing falling savings. 2) The government is likely on…

Why can't the fed just hold onto said toxic assets indefinitely?

In order to "hold onto the assets" the FED actually has to buy US Treasuries when its current treasury holdings mature. The way the FED sells assets is to simply allow the treasuries to mature without buying any to replace it. The implication is that by choosing to buy or not buy treasuries, the FED can help control the US treasury interest rates which either help boost or slow down the economy as needed. The issue with holding and never selling is perpetually low interest rates which encourages people to borrow more since it is cheaper to do so (in theory stimulating growth, but in reality inflating asset prices when it goes on too long). If the FED doesn't unload its treasury holdings, interest rates stay low and capital will continue to take bigger risks to find higher yield, plus an unsustainable asset price inflation as it remains cheap to borrow money to buy assets like houses which then go up in value which creates even more demand through more cheap credit.

I'm already over simplifying, but here is a less abstract illustration: Imagine you lose your job and you need some money to get back on your feet. You borrow against a line of credit to cover living expenses. You find another job but it doesn't pay enough to cover your standard of living, so you keep the line of credit open and just make the minimum payments. You are the US economy and the line of credit is the FED right now. If the line of credit is not paid off, if you lose your job again, there will be nothing to borrow against or even make the minimum payments. The smart thing to do is pay off the credit card balance so you can use it again if you're in trouble. The problem is you can't do that unless you cut back on spending... and this is why the FED always points out that the control of the situation is not with the FED but with congress, they need to cut spending...

And I didn't even address your exact point. This is just the "non-toxic treasuries". The toxic stuff is non performing home loans. Imagine trying to sell those back to someone! Are you willing to buy them?

More info here: https://www.newyorkfed.org/markets/mbs_faq.html

Re: Bitcoin is fiat money, too

#350
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't work at all without the peer network. However, you might be able to construct an "IOU" of sorts by creating a signed transaction offline, to be fed to the network later. (I'm not 100% sure whether anti-replay features make this impractical.)

> However, you might be able to construct an "IOU" of sorts by creating a signed transaction offline, to be fed to the network later. And if you grant the holder of that IOU the sole right to print and distribute notes representing subdivisions of that debt, you’ll find yourself back at cash!

Each such IOU would be tied to a single specific bitcoin. That's not very much like cash, unless your definition is loose enough to call every stock, bond, and collectible in the world cash.
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