Intel CEO leaves American Manufacturing Council • Hacker News Board

Re: Intel CEO leaves American Manufacturing Council

#341

Post by dragonwriter » Tue, Aug 15, 2017, 4:07 PM UTC

lliamander wrote: post #274

pjc50 wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The right-wing violence runs a lot further than that, all the way back to the Civil War and the people who went to war to defend their "right" to violence against black people. There is a continuous line between that and today. The Charlottesville protests were centered on a statue: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/13/us/charlottesville-rally-...

> The Charlottesville protests were centered on a statue You know, in Seattle there is a rather grand looking statue of Lenin. He was a rather evil guy. Who gets to decide which statue stays and which goes?

> You know, in Seattle there is a rather grand looking statue of Lenin. He was a rather evil guy.

The Seattle Lenin is privately owned, so not parallel to the Lee statue in Charlottesville.

> Who gets to decide which statue stays and which goes?

The owners of the statues?

Re: Intel CEO leaves American Manufacturing Council

#342

Post by jazzyk » Tue, Aug 15, 2017, 4:07 PM UTC

leereeves wrote: post #330

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But to be fair, there's no going back. Automation means we don't actually need people to do huge numbers of things. Those displaced people may never have a job again. What got us here, won't get us where we're going. It's all going to have to be reexamined.

> Those displaced people may never have a job again. The unemployment rate is at the lowest level since 2001, and excluding 2000-2001, the lowest level since 1969. https://www.google.com/publicdata/explore?ds=z1ebjpgk2654c1_...

The rate you quote is not a good indicator of overall unemployment - it only measures the dynamics of layoffs in the last 6 months.

The more realistic measure of unemployment, the Civilian Labor Force Participation Rate is at about 63%, back to where we were in 1977. And a lot of women have joined the workforce since then.

https://data.bls.gov/pdq/SurveyOutputServlet

Re: Intel CEO leaves American Manufacturing Council

#343

Post by makomk » Tue, Aug 15, 2017, 4:10 PM UTC

croon wrote: post #40

vermontdevil wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And is the only one who got blasted by Trump.

Coincidentally also the only one who wasn't white.

Coincidentally, he was also the first one who left (edit: not fired). Trump got around to tweeting angrily about the others after you posted this: https://www.cnbc.com/2017/08/15/trump-hits-ceos-who-left-man...

Re: Intel CEO leaves American Manufacturing Council

#344

Post by AnthonyMouse » Tue, Aug 15, 2017, 4:13 PM UTC

jaredklewis wrote: post #324

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Radical Islamists are to Muslims as white supremacists are to white people.

In the sense that are a tiny subset of a much larger group? Well, sure I agree. Or in the sense that "white supremacist" besmirches white people the way that "Radical Islamist" besmirches Islam? Ok, I'm not against referring to them just as "racists" or the groups by their respective names (Neo-Nazis, KKK, and so on). In either case, your comparison between Trump and Obama doesn't hold up. > "Trump has not denounced…

> In the sense that are a tiny subset of a much larger group? Well, sure I agree.

> Or in the sense that "white supremacist" besmirches white people the way that "Radical Islamist" besmirches Islam? Ok, I'm not against referring to them just as "racists" or the groups by their respective names (Neo-Nazis, KKK, and so on).

It's that the larger group gets painted with the bad acts of the malicious minority.

And it's more about the motte/bailey thing than the specific words in the name, which makes "racism" the same problem.

When you have serious people arguing that all white people are racist because they benefit from structural inequality, that word isn't adequately distinguishing what the KKK does from everyone else.

We need something that means "definition by motives" and not the other ones:

http://slatestarcodex.com/2017/06/21/against-murderism/

Bigotry might be a good alternative -- but that's the one he used.

> Obama DID denounce "radical Islamic terrorism," though he did not use that exact term, for the reasons described above.

Trump did denounce white supremacist groups, both before and after Friday.

> It just vaguely criticized "hatred and bigotry," without referencing the fact that in this case the hatred and bigotry was that of Neo-Nazis, KKK, and other racist groups. To me, his statement sounded like he thought the counter-protesters were equally guilty of "hatred and bigotry", and I think many other people felt the same.

And maybe this is really the crux of the matter -- it isn't about "Trump fails to denounce white supremacy", it's that he implicitly criticized the people protesting it.

But only if the counter-protesters are guilty of "hatred and bigotry" -- and if some of them are, why is it wrong to criticize that?

Re: Intel CEO leaves American Manufacturing Council

#345

Post by frubar » Tue, Aug 15, 2017, 4:19 PM UTC

jacquesm wrote: post #228

frubar wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>To toss that all onto the same heap is disingenuous at best. I feel like what people who behave as you are miss is that it could just be ignorance. Ignorance can be cured but not with aggression. Did you see the story where a black man befriended a bunch of KKK and they all ended up leaving the organization at the end? He didn't get that result with righteous indignation even if he had every right to be righteously…

You'd be hard pressed to attribute any aggression to me.

I don't mean physical aggression, I mean verbal bullying. And I may be projecting other "similar feeling" posts to yours too much.

But the kind of behavior I'm seeing now is a bit saddening. I remember when HN guidelines said something to the effect of "Instead of saying 'C++ was created after C, idiot' you can shorten it to 'C++ was created after C'". But I see posts in the tone of yours which say something like "The left has isolated incidents of violence by deranged people, blasted by leaders on the left while the right has much more dangerous and common events which seem to be supported by the leadership. To put these two together is disingenuous and could only be done by a fascist.", where that last sentence could just be left off.

The issue is assuming the absolute worst of everyone you talk to online that doesn't hold your opinion. Maybe the poster just has ignorant friends/family and really doesn't know any better. Maybe they have opinions right now that they're going to be really embarrassed about in 10-20 years. But if you immediately group them together with people like Hitler (didn't this used to kill the thread?) then you give up any hope of educating them (or, more importantly, other people on the fence who are reading the exchange). So I have to wonder what is even the utility of such posts except to signal to others which camp you're in.

Re: Intel CEO leaves American Manufacturing Council

#346

Post by leesalminen » Tue, Aug 15, 2017, 4:20 PM UTC

fhood wrote: post #333

leesalminen wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn't seem to be entirely true. According to PBS, "far-right extremists tend to be more active in committing homicides, yet Islamist extremists tend to be more deadly." Are we comparing percentage of deaths or number of events? Personally, I think both sides are fueled by religious beliefs. Their hate is cut from the same cloth. [0] http://www.pbs.org/newshour/updates/analysis-deadly-threat-f...

I was only referring to number of crimes committed

Thank you for clarifying your original point.

I don't think that 8 right wing extremism homicide events over the course of 2 years shows that _half the country_ are right wing extremists.

Just like how 5 Islamist extremist homicide events over the same period of time don't show that all Muslims are extremists.

Re: Intel CEO leaves American Manufacturing Council

#347

Post by forgottenpass » Tue, Aug 15, 2017, 4:24 PM UTC

dagw wrote: post #247

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Except Trump constantly winks at white supremacists and actively seeks their vote. This argument has never made any sense. White supremacists are concentrated in states that Republicans win by such large margins that victory is assured regardless of how the minority sporting swastika tattoos votes.

If this weekend has taught us anything it's that most white supremacists aren't rednecks from the deep south with swastika tattoos. A lot of the are perfectly normal looking, university educated young men living in nice suburbs all across the country.

What did you possibly think before?

That bad people fit the cartoonish representation pushed by tag team of media and stereotyping?

Re: Intel CEO leaves American Manufacturing Council

#348

Post by justin66 » Tue, Aug 15, 2017, 4:28 PM UTC

leesalminen wrote: post #217

justin66 wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But the Majority Whip for the U.S. Congress is STILL in recovery from a mass shooting over two months ago, by a deranged left-wing activist. > As a moderate, BOTH extremes in the U.S. scare the shit out of me right now. This is painfully ridiculous. The lunatic with a rifle is not representative of Sanders or his supporters, or the left in the U.S. I don't think an honest person of any political stripe would listen…

> The lunatic with a rifle is not representative of Sanders or his supporters And nazis aren't representative of Trump or his supporters. To say otherwise would insinuate that _half the country_ are nazis.

> And nazis aren't representative of Trump or his supporters.

Putting aside the issue of his supporters, a charitable reading of Trump (whose true beliefs are well-concealed by ineloquence and constant displays of self-contradiction and dishonesty) would be that authoritarianism, nationalism, xenophobia, and many other fascist traits resonate strongly with him and he therefore feels some unconscious reluctance to criticize these guys who ought to be really, really easy for him to denounce by name. That's the charitable reading, which is consistent with him not really believing in their stated goals.

The behavior the press harps on - Trump being oddly appreciative of the qualities of "strongman" politicians when he speaks of them - is a common enough talking point, but I was shocked when Trump told the mass-murderer Duterte he was doing a great job. At some point the question of whether Trump is an amoral, dangerous idiot or an evil, dangerous idiot starts to feel a little academic.

Re: Intel CEO leaves American Manufacturing Council

#349

Post by leereeves » Tue, Aug 15, 2017, 4:31 PM UTC

jazzyk wrote: post #342

leereeves wrote: post #330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Those displaced people may never have a job again. The unemployment rate is at the lowest level since 2001, and excluding 2000-2001, the lowest level since 1969. https://www.google.com/publicdata/explore?ds=z1ebjpgk2654c1_...

The rate you quote is not a good indicator of overall unemployment - it only measures the dynamics of layoffs in the last 6 months. The more realistic measure of unemployment, the Civilian Labor Force Participation Rate is at about 63%, back to where we were in 1977. And a lot of women have joined the workforce since then. https://data.bls.gov/pdq/SurveyOutputServlet

The CLFPR makes sense considering the age distribution and the number of students and retirees:

Population over 18: roughly 240M

In college: 20M

Collecting Social Security: 60M

Labor force: 160M

https://www.census.gov/prod/cen2010/briefs/c2010br-03.pdf

https://www.statista.com/statistics/183995/us-college-enroll...

https://www.ssa.gov/oact/STATS/OASDIbenies.html

Re: Intel CEO leaves American Manufacturing Council

#350

Post by robin_reala » Tue, Aug 15, 2017, 4:34 PM UTC

pavlov wrote: post #157

humanrebar wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's not enough space here to get into it in too much detail, but for historical reason, the American right isn't (*) the same thing as the European right. Hundreds of years ago, the U.S. was a constitutional republic with working federalism and a limited national government. Hundreds of years ago, Europe was a lot of things, but often there were monarchs and dictators. So things that seem rather moderate to a Eur…

So things that seem rather moderate to a European (nationalising some industry) is a brand new thing in the American context. When was the last time an entire industry was nationalized in Europe? I can't even think of a post-WWII example off the top of my head. (I'm sure there are examples, considering the success of Communist parties in some West European countries in the decade after 1945.) It's true that there are…

There’s a large number of post-war Western European nationalisations listed on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_nationalizations_by_co... . Most of them are nationalisations of companies rather than industries (for example failing banks during the financial crisis) to be fair.