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“Let her speak please”

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Re: “Let her speak please”

#341

Post by masondixon »

_lex wrote: post #180
novia wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you look at the full response though.. She is supportive of the woman in the audience who spoke up. Veronika Hubeny: I applaud your heroism in standing up for what you believe in! I know well the shaky feeling and subsequent exhilarated and heartwarmed contentment in the knowledge of having done the right thing, and I think that doing so has become more crucial than ever. Your behavior was inspiring and I’m glad…

I think it's worth considering that we're seeing some survivorship bias here - it's possible that she's the only woman on the panel because she thinks this way. In other words, it's possible that other women who would have seen this event as being rooted in sexism may eventually be a part of so many similar events during their career that they effectively burn out and switch to more female friendly fields. This has b…

> it's possible that she's the only woman on the panel because she thinks this way

No true scotsman. If she doesn't agree with your narrative, she is an exception.

> the ones who pay attention to how they might be treated differently leave.

Because they see sexism when its just normal human behaviour.

Why do feminists think its okay to second-guess the male mental and emotional state? As if the same stuff never happens to males.

> you must ignore many possible slights and assume that nobody is purposefully racist

But ask yourself...why do you assume anything is racist in the first place instead of thinking it is just normal human behaviour?

I would argue that modern feminist movements and social justice organisations like black lives matter tell people its because of their race, and train them to view everything through a racial lens. Once you are conditioned to think like this, its hard to not see everything as racism, which is maybe a nicer way to see the world, than to realise the universally humans are just dicks to each other. Instead of the enemy being a specific group, its actually potentially everyone around you.

What is your take on this? I am interested to know if its well off the mark.

Re: “Let her speak please”

#342

Post by masondixon »

randomguy23 wrote: post #221
_lex wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's worth considering that we're seeing some survivorship bias here - it's possible that she's the only woman on the panel because she thinks this way. In other words, it's possible that other women who would have seen this event as being rooted in sexism may eventually be a part of so many similar events during their career that they effectively burn out and switch to more female friendly fields. This has b…

If you wear sexism-colored glasses, don't be surprised if everything looks like sexism. That, I think, is what she's getting at. If you're always looking for a slight, always looking for a snide remark, you'll find it. Perception shapes reality.

100% agree.

Re: “Let her speak please”

#343

Post by [deleted] »

qznc wrote: post #246
jccalhoun wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"If you wear sexism-colored glasses, don't be surprised if everything looks like sexism." and if you wear glasses that block out sexism, don't be surprised if nothing looks like sexism.

So, how should I deal with it? The only way I see is to have an objective definition, which can be objectively applied no matter which glasses I wear. What would that definition of sexism be?

[deleted]

Re: “Let her speak please”

#344

Post by gergles »

jbmorgado wrote: post #292

It baffles me that moderators keep blocking the community and remove flags form these kind of totally non factual and opinionated posts, and then go and themselves flag highly voted fact based posts that make it to the first page of HN - like they did some weeks ago about the code capabilities of IT grads in India. It is almost like the moderators in HN have a clearly defined and very limited political range of ideol…

I would like to echo this a million times over. Flags are the community's way of saying that things aren't appropriate for HN, and the moderators removing flags to editorialize the front page, then in other threads throwing up their proverbial hands and going "well, the community voted for it" when someone comments about why something made the front page, as if there is nothing that can be done, is intellectually dishonest.

Either the community has control, or the moderators do and we should just remove voting altogether.

Re: “Let her speak please”

#345

Post by onion2k »

masondixon wrote: post #328
andai wrote: post #86

> You may be amazed to hear it, but during this panel session I genuinely did not feel affronted or discriminated by the moderator’s behavior. It seemed more amusing to see him try posing a question in a way that at the same time tried answering it. It’s true that this made the question a bit of a moving target for me (and therefore harder to address coherently), but I don’t a-priori assume that the incident was root…

> I don’t a-priori assume that the incident was rooted in sexism So who is sexist in this scenario? Turns out its the feminist in the audience assuming that a woman needs someone to cause a public disturbance because she could not help herself be heard. Why is it every time some social justice event gains public attention, it turns out to not be sexism/racist/etc. at all.

So who is sexist in this scenario?

Maybe it's no one.

A simple test is to ask yourself if you believe it'd have been sexist for a man to have done the same thing. I think we'd all just assume it was someone interested in what the woman on the panel had to say. It's not automatically 'sexist', or even feminist, for a woman to speak up for another woman.

Re: “Let her speak please”

#346

Post by dating_advice »

neolefty wrote: post #212
novia wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you look at the full response though.. She is supportive of the woman in the audience who spoke up. Veronika Hubeny: I applaud your heroism in standing up for what you believe in! I know well the shaky feeling and subsequent exhilarated and heartwarmed contentment in the knowledge of having done the right thing, and I think that doing so has become more crucial than ever. Your behavior was inspiring and I’m glad…

The feeling was rather one of camaraderie: the challenges to unravel the deepest mysteries of the universe, the thrill in understanding another tiny bit of this grand puzzle, and the sheer wonder at how beautifully the physics hangs together, put us all in the same boat, so to speak. This is what will end discrimination based on superficial differences: I think our mental reality is so much more interesting than our…

More importantly, we need to get to "life against entropy" rather than "humans against other humans and other life". As long as we're at this level, who gets mistreated by whom is kind of secondary. Says the white male... though I'm not saying sexism and racism "etc" don't matter, but I insist that overcoming them are still but stepping stones, and if humanity is going to stay the blind menace it is, I would support anything that weakens it more than anything that would strengthen it, in the hopes for it at least remaining confined to the solar system. I don't care for the health of an invading army, I care for the health of gardeners and builders.

Re: “Let her speak please”

#347

Post by weberc2 »

kefka wrote: post #282
andai wrote: post #86

> You may be amazed to hear it, but during this panel session I genuinely did not feel affronted or discriminated by the moderator’s behavior. It seemed more amusing to see him try posing a question in a way that at the same time tried answering it. It’s true that this made the question a bit of a moving target for me (and therefore harder to address coherently), but I don’t a-priori assume that the incident was root…

Indeed, a level-headed comment is what is required in this situation. This is her livelihood, her career.. Pretty much everything for her. If she was to attack her colleagues, it would spell certain doom for her career. Her opinions and proofs would be dismissed and denigrated. And the specter of "Will I be accused of sexism if I pan this paper?" will rear its ugly head anywhere she would turn. Think of this as an an…

While I agree, it's also plausible that she's being sincere, and it's merely a consequence of being awesome that people treat you well.

Re: “Let her speak please”

#348

Post by tankenmate »

randomguy23 wrote: post #221
_lex wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's worth considering that we're seeing some survivorship bias here - it's possible that she's the only woman on the panel because she thinks this way. In other words, it's possible that other women who would have seen this event as being rooted in sexism may eventually be a part of so many similar events during their career that they effectively burn out and switch to more female friendly fields. This has b…

If you wear sexism-colored glasses, don't be surprised if everything looks like sexism. That, I think, is what she's getting at. If you're always looking for a slight, always looking for a snide remark, you'll find it. Perception shapes reality.

Tathagata Buddha, the Father Buddha, said, "With our thoughts, we make the world."

Re: “Let her speak please”

#349

Post by awkward »

discombobulate wrote: post #208
ssanders82 wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Jesus Christ. Here's a thought, treat them as people and not "a black" or "a woman". You don't have to ingratiate yourself in the fear that some random person will think you're a racist. He's just a person going about his day delivering packages. He's got his own worries and concerns and things going on in his mind. "Is becoming a racist the best solution, so I'm able to function more effectively?" I can't tell if yo…

> He's just a person going about his day delivering packages. He's got his own worries and concerns and things going on in his mind. Of course. He could also be vigilantly looking for 'racists'. I really don't know. I'm using the theory of mind to construct a possible world view. My data set is Twitter/HN/reddit, mainly. I would love to treat everyone like a person, but if I do I leave myself vulnerable to accusation…

If you choose to focus exclusively on the abstract you choose to live in a world where all of these conflicts are permanently laid out in stark contrast. The reason your mailman, for example, has no reason to have a problem with you is because he is focused on the practical and material reality of doing his job. The reason the speaker in the article was able to respond gently is because she has a working relationship with the journalist who interrupted her.

Minus the real ties people develop between each other, and the interest in having a comfortable environment around them, human history has more than enough wrongs documented to justify everyone's anger against everyone else.

Re: “Let her speak please”

#350

Post by token_throwaway »

Ugh, I watched the video, jesus the host might be the least self-aware person who's ever been asked to host anything. I was unreasonably annoyed listening to him.

Anyway I want to share something, made this throwaway account specifically for this. I'm the only female at my company, and a developer to boot. I'm assertive in general, I make sure I'm heard. In fact, I try to be hyper-aware of how much I'm talking in a meeting setting, just to be respectful of others. I also feel that I am virtually unaware of my gender at work. I've been lucky in that respect -- trust me, sexism in the world and sexism in STEM is real, and it's not always easy being a female -- but I'm in agreeance with the author that intent matters, and generally that assumed sexist intent can get a bit dramatic. Whether my personality affects my perception, I can't say.

I work with a lot of very introverted and quiet males -- and a small handful of overpowering, extraverted males. I've found myself doing this exact thing quite often. Weekly even. "Let's let him finish his point", "I'm interested in hearing more from {quiet_guy}", "{quiet_guy}, is {contribution_of_loud_guy} what you meant by that?", et cetera.

I would like to believe that if the panel person was a male, it would have elicited the same building irritation from the audience. Although, I'm less sure that someone would have spoken up. I think someone would have needed to feel personally antagonized in order to speak up, which is exactly what happened here.

Bit of a ramble, sorry. My bottom line is that we should all be looking out for those who speak up less, if we sense that those people are being out-talked. My feeling is that people in that category might be more female than not... but I'm also saying that it doesn't matter either way.

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