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China won't be luring foreign tech talent any time soon

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Re: China won't be luring foreign tech talent any time soon

#341

Post by eva1984 »

mratzloff wrote: post #192
blacktulip wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would be a book. There are of course extreme workloads from both the schools and the parents. But to me there is something worse - the public shaming culture. I live in the UK now. Something very odd to me at the beginning is that I can never know how good my kids are doing compare to their classmates. The teachers would politely refuse to answer such questions. And the 'parents meeting' is private to one pupil's…

Yes. One can draw a direct line between shame-based cultures and an unwillingness to take risks for fear of failure. The most harmful outcome of this is lack of innovation.

Japan and Korea pretty much did the same thing, and they are not accused of lack innovation. And China is not actually lack of innovation nowadays, catch-up maybe but a strong player already.

There is nothing inherently in Chinese culture that prevents innovation. Innovated people gonna innovate, when they got the resources they need.

Poor country usually aren't very innovative, and China has become much richer at national level. To bet, there will be more innovations from China than not for the next several decades.

Re: China won't be luring foreign tech talent any time soon

#342

Post by MarkMc »

parennoob wrote: post #224
finid wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is my observation: If you're Indian, being "relatively well-off" is not your only advantage: (White) Americans tend to view you in more favorable terms. It's almost as if we welcome you with open arms.

I am an Indian in the US. I get the general idea of what you are saying, but I should note that it has a strong implicit assumption of a very liberal community. In such communities (say in SF or NYC), I am welcomed pretty warmly. On the other hand, in a bunch of mostly male, middle-aged, Christian tech people in Middle America, I am regarded with a mildly welcoming/neutral attitude at best and open hostility that is…

My understanding is that even "open hostility that is leaning-towards-but-not-exactly-racism" is better than an Indian person is likely to experience living in China.

Re: China won't be luring foreign tech talent any time soon

#343

Post by js8 »

kmicklas wrote: post #243
js8 wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"But I think China wants to mainly increase talent retention. There are many Chinese who stay in US after finishing their studies there. China wants those educated people back." They should consider democracy, then. Educated people like that. I was born in a communist country. It's not surprising to me that smart people want to leave.

Communist != undemocratic China happens to be neither communist or democratic

Yeah, if you think of word "communist" as a name for an ideal, perhaps it's possible. But most countries that were designated communist (or socialist, which is even more misleading) were also undemocratic, and I happened to be born in one of them (Czech Republic).

The "communist" part of the system I was born in actually worked somewhat. What didn't work was absence of democracy, which means there was one hierarchy of power. This was the cause of nepotism, corruption and pollution, just as it is in China.

Re: China won't be luring foreign tech talent any time soon

#344

Post by ocean86 »

flamedoge wrote: post #329
ocean86 wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for saying these! As a Chinese as well, I agrees with you with these facts, they makes China less favorable to many of us. For some of your points, I'd share some different interpretations. 1. Yes - Housing is a problem. I think it is a salary problem. As tech corps in US earns money from the whole world, most Chinese tech corps can only attract Chinese customers. So the value generated from a same piece of co…

> 4. ... limited educational resource and the amount of people who wants to use it Is this really the case? I can't imagine a country having to limit educating students because of lack of resources. I hope they're not doing it artificially just to have a gradient.

Maybe my word choice is wrong. 'Limited' here does not mean someone is limiting the resource. It means the scarcity. In another way, it is limited by nature. Like how it is used the definition of Economic Problem: "How do we satisfy unlimited wants with limited resources?" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_problem)

Back to your question, China is not limiting education. But the education is limited by the nature of a lack of resources problem. Lets say we are in a university called US. We have 10 students and 10 Profs in US. Then every student could easily get into the course they want. An entry test might be placed only to make sure the student has knowledge required for this course. But in another university called China, they have 20 students but only 5 Profs. So a entry test is placed on those 20 to select the best 5 students for classes. So these 20 students need to study damn hard for the chance to get into the course they want. For here, prof is a 'limited resource.'

Re: China won't be luring foreign tech talent any time soon

#345

Post by ocean86 »

aaron-lebo wrote: post #321
gaoshan wrote: post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>But you are openly advocating about that, people will frown upon you, and will keep you distance. Having lived in an oppressively religious area (in the American South) this is one of the things I like best about China. It's a relief, compared to how it is in super religious areas.

Where did you live? If I felt like talking to someone about religion I'd have to go out of my way to do it. The urban areas in the South are no more or less religious than the North unless you are in a few cities (portland). The PRC on the other hand has actively persecuted religions/cults (the Falun Gong are a prime example).

No. PRC doesn't persecute any religions now as long as they obey laws and don't trouble anyone. There are lot of Buddhists and Muslims in China. People and the government pretty much doesn't care about religion.

But Falun Gong is 'persecuted'. It is different from other religions. Now, it seems to be an peaceful religion, but Back when it was operating in China, it is not. It seeks political status, motivate its people for illegal activities, and people lost they lives because of it.

I understand you cannot believe me. But ask other Chinese from mainland china, shouldn't be hard to find some if you are in tech industry. (They might refuse to share their opinion because they know the answer might offend you.)

Re: China won't be luring foreign tech talent any time soon

#346

Post by 3pt14159 »

solidsnack9000 wrote: post #325
3pt14159 wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

English is a strange language, but I wouldn't say especially difficult. Chinese is much harder to learn because it's so inconsistent between what you're supposed to say and the way people actually talk. In addition to using tones that are very unfamiliar and then you also need to learn the written language which is very difficult and requires a Chinese-Chinese dictionary for strange words like manticore and sometimes…

English does have a great many more sounds than Chinese, and very complicated grammar relative to any Asian language. (The tones make up, to some degree, for the paucity of sounds in Chinese.) A native English speaker, I have always been perplexed by the tendency of foreigners to use "the" incorrectly. A space ship orbits "the Earth" but not "the Mars", for example. But then I tried to find a guide to using "the"...i…

It has more vowels (and more frequent consonants), but tone doesn't change the word in English. It can change the meaning (denote sarcasm, sadness, or questioning) but using a higher or lower pitch doesn't change the way you'd write out the word. Remembering tones is like adding imaginary numbers to your math, it's something you never thought about that you need to now account for everywhere. Learning new individual sounds is hard (and I have to do it with Russian) but I don't think it's as hard as the tone business in Chinese.

As for filler words in English: I totally agree it's madness. The word "set" has like 20 definitions. But you can mess them up and people will still understand you. "I break into car" (the way a Russian learning English would say it) vs "I'll break into the car" are both understood the same; whereas in Chinese if I mess up a (to my ears minor) tone, the information is completely lost.

Re: China won't be luring foreign tech talent any time soon

#347

Post by virmundi »

bas wrote: post #324
virmundi wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personal issue, Gutter Oil. That is a non-starter for me. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gutter_oil

This is real? Terrifying.

There's documentaries and other documentations. The one I saw showed a husband and wife fishing out of the sewer near a hotel. They take the gunk, boil it and then fry their street foods. Can't go there.

Re: China won't be luring foreign tech talent any time soon

#348

Post by inputcoffee »

inputcoffee wrote: post #125
stevesun21 wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If US attracts talent and they are all speak English, what reason you think that China cannot attract talent who are going to speak Chinese?

There are a few reasons: 1. You are usually effective and comfortable in the language you were educated in. 2. If you want to do business with a person in another language, you usually both default to English because it is usually second language if it is not their first. I mean look at your own situation. I assume that you are fairly well educated (on Hacker News, decent grammar, and asked a good question). Suppose…

Ugh!

Too late to edit this now but I meant to say Mandarin, not "Chinese."

Mea Culpa.

Re: China won't be luring foreign tech talent any time soon

#349

Post by bertomartin »

ocean86 wrote: post #268
blacktulip wrote: post #68

As a Chinese I would say that the points in this article, though true, are not among the driving reasons. If you ask me, I would present this list: 1. Practically, there are only 4-5 cities suitable for 'tech talents' in China. The properties prices in these cities are comparable to the ones in NY and SF while the salary isn't. BTW: you have very little chance to be able to get married without a property under your n…

Thanks for saying these! As a Chinese as well, I agrees with you with these facts, they makes China less favorable to many of us. For some of your points, I'd share some different interpretations. 1. Yes - Housing is a problem. I think it is a salary problem. As tech corps in US earns money from the whole world, most Chinese tech corps can only attract Chinese customers. So the value generated from a same piece of co…

3. I disagree. I've been working in the tech industry (in the U.S) for over 8 years now. Relationship with the manager absolutely matters as far as being paid more and promotion. That's my experience in all 4 tech companies I've worked at. Though there are props for merit, but at the end of the day, and especially at the bigger firms, it's your relationship with higher ups that gets you there.

Re: China won't be luring foreign tech talent any time soon

#350

Post by solidsnack9000 »

3pt14159 wrote: post #346
solidsnack9000 wrote: post #325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

English does have a great many more sounds than Chinese, and very complicated grammar relative to any Asian language. (The tones make up, to some degree, for the paucity of sounds in Chinese.) A native English speaker, I have always been perplexed by the tendency of foreigners to use "the" incorrectly. A space ship orbits "the Earth" but not "the Mars", for example. But then I tried to find a guide to using "the"...i…

It has more vowels (and more frequent consonants), but tone doesn't change the word in English. It can change the meaning (denote sarcasm, sadness, or questioning) but using a higher or lower pitch doesn't change the way you'd write out the word. Remembering tones is like adding imaginary numbers to your math, it's something you never thought about that you need to now account for everywhere. Learning new individual…

Tonality and use of filler words are not really relatable.

Mistaken tonality is more like saying "tree" instead of "three".

Tonality is another feature of a speech sound like aspiration or voicing. Although it is not easy for English speakers, there no reason in principle to single it out as especially difficult.

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