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In Cramped and Costly Bay Area, Cries to Build, Baby, Build

nytimes.com

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Re: In Cramped and Costly Bay Area, Cries to Build, Baby, Build

#341

Post by thaumasiotes »

pj_mukh wrote: post #47
hodwik2 wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you please explain why the foreign investment is a problem? Every time I've heard this discussed, it's mostly been people saying "The CHINESE are buying up houses" with a racist glint in their eyes. I don't get the impression these people would be as worried if the foreign investors were of French or Irish parentage. If I've misunderstood the issue, people correct me.

Well given that I'm South Asian, I don't think their race is an issue to me personally, and people in Vancouver who've brought this problem up are the most racially progressive bunch there is (including a huge native Chinese population that has been there for decades). Chinese money is flooding in because of issues in the Chinese investment market and they are increasing their investment in the SF market too now. The…

> Well given that I'm South Asian, I don't think their race is an issue to me personally

First I've heard of some sort of racial friendship between Chinese and Indians. I can assure you it's not reciprocated by the Chinese.

Re: In Cramped and Costly Bay Area, Cries to Build, Baby, Build

#342

Post by bluthru »

CamperBob2 wrote: post #201
skewart wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, the comment section on that article is pretty sad. The number of people whose argument against building more housing is a fear that it will make the city "ugly" is astounding. It's mind-numbingly selfish and greedy to think that a family should barely be able to make ends meet, and children should spend less time with their long-commuting parents, just so that SF can meet your personal aesthetic sensibilities.…

There are two things that continually surprise me about life in the modern, Internet-enabled age... two things that I would never have dreamed would happen, if you'd asked the 1996 version of me what American life would be like in 2016. One is our increasing indulgence in irrationality, to the extent that we almost celebrate it. I would never have guessed that hard-right social conservatism would still be a dominant…

>finally going to liberate us from crowded, noisy, polluted urban prisons

What are you, a suburban developer from the 50's?

Urban areas often provide a higher quality of life than The Geography of Nowhere. Do some introductory research into urban design. Read some Jane Jacobs. You thought the human desire for community and activity was just going to leave?

Re: In Cramped and Costly Bay Area, Cries to Build, Baby, Build

#343

Post by freyr »

Houshalter wrote: post #211
freyr wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the one hand, you have established residents pushing back against expansion, construction, and denser housing -- perhaps to preserve what they value in their community, or perhaps out of personal interest and to drive up their property values. On the other, you have a massive influx of tech workers who have convinced themselves that they must live in this small, overpriced city for their basic livelihood, and that…

Man "entitlement" is such a weird word, and such a weird way to frame the issue. There are property owners who would like to build on their own property, not hurting anyone. And being told they're not allowed to because rich people like the aesthetic. There's poor people being priced out of their own city because of this. Who's entitled? And this is hardly the first time a US city has experienced growth.

If someone pays $X million for a house in San Francisco with a view, you can assume it will hurt when an affordable-living highrise is constructed next door that blocks their view.

Now, perhaps the happiness of the people who live in that highrise and get a spectacular view at a government-mandated affordable price outweighs the pain of the individual who paid market price. But somebody got hurt.

Re: In Cramped and Costly Bay Area, Cries to Build, Baby, Build

#344

Post by freyr »

WalterBright wrote: post #334
aninhumer wrote: post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yes, it's completely selfish that someone would like to keep the money they've earned Well yeah. The very concept of ownership is inherently selfish. It means you want there to be a particular set of resources you get to use, and no one else. It's pretty much the definition of selfishness. Not that I think this is a bad thing, but if you're trying to argue with this particular rhetorical framing, you're going to lo…

How is it not equally selfish for someone to claim they are entitled to other peoples' money?

Because it's more selfish?

Re: In Cramped and Costly Bay Area, Cries to Build, Baby, Build

#345

Post by rbanffy »

WalterBright wrote: post #334
aninhumer wrote: post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yes, it's completely selfish that someone would like to keep the money they've earned Well yeah. The very concept of ownership is inherently selfish. It means you want there to be a particular set of resources you get to use, and no one else. It's pretty much the definition of selfishness. Not that I think this is a bad thing, but if you're trying to argue with this particular rhetorical framing, you're going to lo…

How is it not equally selfish for someone to claim they are entitled to other peoples' money?

Not at all because it's not "I am entitled to your money" but "everyone's entitled to everyone's money".

Re: In Cramped and Costly Bay Area, Cries to Build, Baby, Build

#346

Post by nihonde »

nihonde wrote: post #320
ekianjo wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Im in japan too and there are very clear zoning rules per area. There are very clear bedtowns with no industries or commerces but its probably not near where you live. There is very little freedom to build new things that is why you get extremely expensive apartments and rents. This prevents people to live on their own unless they are married and get enough income for that. And its the first time i hear someone say t…

Yes, I can understand your views. I guess it's possible to disagree about this. I've seen how bad things are in America in terms of affordable housing, so the options in Japan seem quite nice by comparison. As for bedroom communities without commerce, I would attribute that to: (1) an excellent public transportation infrastructure, and (2) an overall migration of livelihoods to Tokyo/Osaka-scale urban centers. My exp…

This interesting video of Kumamoto earthquake wreckage puts this discussion in context. You can see clearly the kinds of construction——old and new——that is typical in Japan. Most of it holds up to the quake very well, despite being disposed to quick, cheap, and clean building.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-Vqo3COVSg

Re: In Cramped and Costly Bay Area, Cries to Build, Baby, Build

#347

Post by aninhumer »

WalterBright wrote: post #334
aninhumer wrote: post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yes, it's completely selfish that someone would like to keep the money they've earned Well yeah. The very concept of ownership is inherently selfish. It means you want there to be a particular set of resources you get to use, and no one else. It's pretty much the definition of selfishness. Not that I think this is a bad thing, but if you're trying to argue with this particular rhetorical framing, you're going to lo…

How is it not equally selfish for someone to claim they are entitled to other peoples' money?

Until you have a property system there is no "other people's" stuff.

Re: In Cramped and Costly Bay Area, Cries to Build, Baby, Build

#348

Post by aninhumer »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #337
aninhumer wrote: post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yes, it's completely selfish that someone would like to keep the money they've earned Well yeah. The very concept of ownership is inherently selfish. It means you want there to be a particular set of resources you get to use, and no one else. It's pretty much the definition of selfishness. Not that I think this is a bad thing, but if you're trying to argue with this particular rhetorical framing, you're going to lo…

> Not that I think this is a bad thing, but if you're trying to argue with this particular rhetorical framing, you're going to lose hard. I think you missed the other half of the sentence: > and yet completely selfless that you feel you have a right to [the money someone else earned]

The other half of the sentence only makes sense within a property system. My point is that the very act of saying "That's mine, you can't have it" is already incredibly selfish.

Re: In Cramped and Costly Bay Area, Cries to Build, Baby, Build

#349

Post by nugget »

willholloway wrote: post #210
CamperBob2 wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are two things that continually surprise me about life in the modern, Internet-enabled age... two things that I would never have dreamed would happen, if you'd asked the 1996 version of me what American life would be like in 2016. One is our increasing indulgence in irrationality, to the extent that we almost celebrate it. I would never have guessed that hard-right social conservatism would still be a dominant…

You're not wrong. Any developer for example that can find remote work can benefit from the plummeting real estate costs to be found in any of the areas that have seen an outflow of people in search of work in urban areas. There are countless communities across the US that are aging, as the youth have moved to the metropolis to work. Anyone that can extract money from the internet can benefit from this trend. Couple t…

What cities or towns would you put at the top of this list?

Re: In Cramped and Costly Bay Area, Cries to Build, Baby, Build

#350

Post by [deleted] »

willholloway wrote: post #210
CamperBob2 wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are two things that continually surprise me about life in the modern, Internet-enabled age... two things that I would never have dreamed would happen, if you'd asked the 1996 version of me what American life would be like in 2016. One is our increasing indulgence in irrationality, to the extent that we almost celebrate it. I would never have guessed that hard-right social conservatism would still be a dominant…

You're not wrong. Any developer for example that can find remote work can benefit from the plummeting real estate costs to be found in any of the areas that have seen an outflow of people in search of work in urban areas. There are countless communities across the US that are aging, as the youth have moved to the metropolis to work. Anyone that can extract money from the internet can benefit from this trend. Couple t…

[deleted]
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