Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

nytimes.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

341–350 of 376 posts

Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

#341

Post by st3v3r »

madaxe_again wrote: post #327
cubano wrote: post #324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No they were not...none of the examples you gave were democratic Republics that were based on the Rule of Law, so I'm not sure what's to discuss here. Comparing the US today with Soviet Russia under Stalin or NK under Kim is so ill-informed its impossible to process.

North Korea is known as "The Democratic People's Republic of Korea". All of the others listed self-identified as democratic nations in the respective periods I refer to. In the USSR, the Communist party was "elected" time and time again, in "democratic" elections. They had a "mandate from the people". To completely disregard any comparison because "they're bad and we're good" is so dogmatic and jingoistic it's imposs…

And to try and stretch a comparison simply because they have the word "Democratic" in their name is so ignorant of reality that it's impossible to process.

Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

#342

Post by dang »

lolidaisuki wrote: post #230
studentrob wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh his is great! I couldn't summarize it sufficiently. Basically, he did a complete 180. You should listen to both his first [1] and third [2] podcast on the subject. In the first one he really lambasted supporters of encryption, and in the third he changed his view completely. He quotes a good analogy here [3] and concludes his thoughts with a final opinion here [4] I don't fault him for his first podcast. He came u…

So changing your opinion is a bad thing? If you think that people should keep their opinions you are a fucking retard.

We ban accounts that comment like this, so please don't comment like this. Instead, comment if you have something civil and substantive to say, and not if you don't.

Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

#343

Post by coroutines »

kstenerud wrote: post #26

Taking this further down the rabbit hole: Suppose that only about 5 people can do what the FBI wants done. Suppose all 5 refuse, to the point of quitting Apple. Does the FBI now compel them to return to Apple and write the software or go to jail? And what if one of those engineers says that he doesn't actually know how to do it; Apple only thought he could, but he actually can't. Now we get into territory of proving…

Apple absolutely needs to comply with the FBI's request.

And then give the same capabilities to the governments of every country they do business in.

Our politicians might actually fight for our interests in digital privacy/security if theirs is directly threatened by the governments of China, Iran, North Korea, and Russia.

If our government needs this to do lawful search and seizure, so do all these others.

I'm tired of our gov acting like they're above reproach and somehow more deserving than any other naive government. History has shown they can't protect us from terrorists 100% of the time, and it shouldn't come at the expense of our civil liberties - at the expense of the principles and detracting from the identity of what makes us American. They can't even protect the information of people who elect to share their privacy with the gov (OPM breach/leak of which I was a victim). They shouldn't have the ability to violate the security of [realistically] billions of phones. It's absurdly overreaching and a massive abuse of the authority we "give" them.

Caveat: Not complying and this other plan of action would both upset stockholders.

Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

#344

Post by rev_bird »

stephenr wrote: post #191
rev_bird wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Julian Assange set up shop outside of the US, now he lives in the basement of an office building.

Julian Assange isn't an American citizen, so why would he have ever "set up shop" in America?

I made my point less clear by trying to be concise. I just meant that in a lot of ways the influence of the United States isn't limited by its borders.

Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

#345

Post by [deleted] »

cubano wrote: post #274
studentrob wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They could be fined hundreds of thousands daily for refusing to act. We recently found out this happened to Yahoo in 2008 [1] via the FISA court. Apple shareholders wouldn't like that. I'm pretty sure Tim Cook and his lawyer mean it when they say they will comply with the law. Apple engineers need not worry so much about quitting their jobs over this. If I were there I would stick with Tim Cook. Consider, If Apple lo…

Your nativity on how "criminal justice" and law enforcement works is kinda astounding to me. If a judge orders an injunction against these citizens and they don't comply, he won't fine them, he will jail them, which is an incredible hardship, esp. against people not used to the prison industrial complex and its dehumanizing effects. Perhaps sitting in jail for weeks or months will endure these guys to the IT masses a…

[deleted]

Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

#346

Post by mindcrime »

kelseydh wrote: post #302
cubano wrote: post #286

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I sure can, and fully expect it to eventually happen, unfortunately. The sad part is, As Tim Cook said, all this will do is push the bad guys to use an encryption app from somewhere else. I have a good deal of experience in the US criminal justice system, and the one thing everyone I've met and done time with inside the system, from bank robbers to drug dealers to murderers say is, in the end, "They (the courts and p…

Unless you can afford good lawyers to put on a good defense. Then you get a Netflix show.

These Apple engineers will probably be able to afford pretty good lawyers. Heck, some good ones might offer to do this pro-bono, just because it could be a reputation / career maker.

Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

#347

Post by Bluestrike2 »

jnbiche wrote: post #270
Bluestrike2 wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Engineers refusing to do the work might be counter-productive. It'd allow the FBI and its supporters to change the narrative to one potentially more favorable to them. Instead of a debate about encryption and privacy, they'd try to change it to a debate about respecting the courts that plays right into the "law and order" mindset. I don't know how it'd play out, but I'd hate to give the government yet another advanta…

> by designing systems that can't be circumvented like this again. "Too bad, so sad - we can't do that any more. We're very, very sorry for the inconvenience." But that's exactly why this case is so, so critical. FBI is fishing for a precedent that will make designing these types of systems explicitly illegal. Apple is well aware of this strategy, which is why they've chosen to take their stand here, as unpleasant as…

That's actually a separate, but related, issue. Right now, the courts are weighing whether the FBI can force the creation of a modified OS largely because (a) it's possible to do so with how existing iPhones are engineered, and (b) it wouldn't drastically inconvenience Apple to do so in light of their resources. If they get a favorable ruling, they have a precedent they'll try and use to gain access to other phones in their possession. But that really only applies to phones where it's possible to do so right now. If they can't do the same for future phones, the precedent is moot.

The court isn't ruling on whether Apple has the right to modify their systems to prevent this strategy in the future. No matter how the court decides, it won't affect how Apple can design future devices. If the FBI were to ask for a ruling like that, they'd either lose or it'd be overturned on appeal. Something like that, where the government is actively telling manufacturers how they can and cannot design their products, could really only come from a new law instead of trying to backdoor it through the courts.

I don't doubt that the government would love a tool like that, but it'd be aggressively challenged as an unprecedented expansion of federal power if it was ever signed into law. And that's iffy; a law like that would jeopardize overseas sales for tech companies even more than the NSA's actions already have. They'd have no choice but to pour an incredible sum of money into lobbying efforts, major PR campaigns, and campaign donations to fight it politically and hit back hard against any politicians who supported such a law.

Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

#349

Post by nucleardog »

SturgeonsLaw wrote: post #214
EGreg wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does the government merely name a number out of thin air and the company now has to pay it? Can the government just declare the moon to be their property tomorrow? How would they enforce the delivery of these funds?

At its core, the government can enforce arbitrary declarations because they have the ability to use force against those who don't comply - ie; they control the prisons, the police and the armies. "Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun" - Mao Zedong

Or to put it another way:

"You don't really own anything that you couldn't carry at a dead sprint while firing an AK-47 over your shoulder."

Re: Apple Encryption Engineers, If Ordered to Unlock iPhone, Might Resist

#350

Post by peteretep »

jacquesm wrote: post #241
peteretep wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There seem to be a whole bunch of people waving around odd ideas. The idea that this would be a new low is ridiculous if one takes the time to consider conscription. If you don't like that the government can coerce you (conscription, work in jail, contempt of court, eminent domain, etc) then rally against those laws, rather than the court using established powers

> There seem to be a whole bunch of people waving around odd ideas. No, it's not an 'odd idea'. The fact that the government can coerce you has lots of limits placed on it. Conscription and the draft have been abolished in most places in the developed world, contempt of court may get you jailed but will not - and can not - be used to force you to create something and eminent domain can only be used to take something…

    > Conscription and the draft have been abolished in
    > most places in the developed world
But not America, the topic under discussion, so what's your point?

    > contempt of court may get you jailed but will not -
    > and can not - be used to force you to create something
That is factually incorrect. There are plenty of counter-examples. One I can remember getting plenty of news coverage is:

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/17598441/ns/us_news-weird_news/t/m...

    > eminent domain can only be used to take something away
    > from you
... it was given as an example of coercive power of governments.

    > it would mean that ordinary citizens that have broken no
    > laws can be forced to create something that does not
    > currently exist against their express desire
Only if you ignore conscription, which is alive and well in the US (Selective Service), and the counter-examples where contempt of court is used to compel people to "create" something.
Post reply on HN