I spent the last 15 years trying to become an American and failed • Hacker News Board

Re: I spent the last 15 years trying to become an American and failed

#331

Post by hudibras » Tue, Jun 23, 2015, 10:58 PM UTC

bdcravens wrote: post #71

josefresco wrote: post #11

Honest question: If the author "had come to America to attend Yale." didn't they also research the requirements for citizenship or an extended stay? Did they decide the benefits outweigh the cons or did they just "hope" things would work out? Maybe they made the decision after attending Yale - was this decision not well informed? I think criticism of the immigration system is warranted and valid, just that potential…

The Yale degree is still valuable even if the author can't stay in the United States.

Yup. There's quite a bit of white privilege dripping from this article. I'm supposed to feel sorry for a Ivy League lawyer? What if this was written by a 33-year old Haitian who went to Cal State Fullerton? Would it get the same reaction on HN? Or would it even be published by vox?

Re: I spent the last 15 years trying to become an American and failed

#332

Post by kuschku » Tue, Jun 23, 2015, 10:59 PM UTC

jotm wrote: post #318

kuschku wrote: post #295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As always, with the EU, it’s complicated, but often the "free to work, live and retire everywhere in the EU" is considered part of Schengen.

Is it? Then how come Romanian and Bulgarian citizens get the same rights without being in Schengen? Or don't they?

As I said, with the EU everything has special cases and exceptions.

Re: I spent the last 15 years trying to become an American and failed

#333

Post by hudibras » Tue, Jun 23, 2015, 11:03 PM UTC

chrisper wrote: post #229

mzs wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is very likely that the first time he applied for the lottery he would lose his visa and have to leave the US for an indeterminate period of time. The way it works in practice, people that had another visa before are at a disadvantage in the lottery. It is also not free. Military service was potentially another route though, but may have been intractable due to circumstances like student loans or military fitness…

No. There is no connection between the lottery and your visa except if you win. You do not win the green card, you win the application. Not sure why you thinking that the lottery is not free, but it has been free forever (except for the scam sites). Military service only gives you green card and residency if it is war time. During non war time, it allows you to apply for citizenship after you served (instead of waiti…

With only two exceptions (Philippines and American Samoa), you need to be a permanent resident (i.e, already have a green card) to enlist in the U.S. military if you aren't a citizen.

Re: I spent the last 15 years trying to become an American and failed

#334

Post by dragonwriter » Tue, Jun 23, 2015, 11:05 PM UTC

saalweachter wrote: post #195

kuschku wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The debate the politicians in my state (Schleswig-Holstein, a state in Germany) had about this was really interesting, sadly it’s in German. Essentially, it boils down to two issues: Morally, we all are descendants of immigrants, or at least most. Economically, most immigrants are willing to work hard. Combined with the fact that our society has a birth rate below replacement rate (1.3 vs. 2.1) we need immigrants jus…

Another frequently-cited benefit of opened borders is that -- for the most part -- current citizens own everything in this country, and stand to make a bit of cash if there's an influx of new faces looking to buy houses, used cars, rent rooms, etc etc etc.

> Another frequently-cited benefit of opened borders is that -- for the most part -- current citizens own everything in this country

This is not true. Very many things in this country are owned by entities that are not citizens -- foreign corporations and/or foreign individuals.

> and stand to make a bit of cash if there's an influx of new faces looking to buy houses, used cars, rent rooms, etc etc etc.

Sure, some people (some of whom are citizens) own things for which local demand and prices would increase with an influx of new people. Lots of citizens don't own much, and would be competing to purchase those things, and would suffer rather than benefit from the higher prices.

The benefit here is pretty much directly in proportion to current ownership of capital (just like the benefit from greater supply, and therefore lower prices, from labor.)

Re: I spent the last 15 years trying to become an American and failed

#335

Post by bruceb » Tue, Jun 23, 2015, 11:05 PM UTC

winter_blue wrote: post #291

emodendroket wrote: post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you've ever come across any posts on HN regarding immigrant workers in technology (who are on the same visa, the H1B†, that the author of the Vox article was on), you will see a shockingly offensive amount contempt and hatred for highly-skilled immigrants. Well, that's probably largely because the system is being abused to bring in questionable workers and drive down wages.

No, it's mostly because those commentors on HN can't code worth their salt, and can't find a job, in an industry with thousands of unfilled positions, and need a scapegoat to pile hatred on. Most of the points stated on those hateful comments are either factually wrong, or overstate something as being the norm, when it probably happens less than 10% of the time. For one, if you are even decently good at software deve…

Yes because if you have some criticism of policies that allow Disney to have workers train their foreign replacement you must be some kind of xenophobic racist.

Immigration is a complex issue. Name calling doesn't solve anything.

Re: I spent the last 15 years trying to become an American and failed

#336

Post by blue11 » Tue, Jun 23, 2015, 11:07 PM UTC

bane wrote: post #72

I sympathize with the author, the path to a green card is ridiculous. [1] But that's where my sympathies stop. It's not a hidden process either. If staying here matters to you better work tirelessly to put yourself on a path to permanent residency and you better be the one to push it daily or it won't happen. Here we have a highly educated, Ivy Leaguer with a LAW DEGREE , who didn't. But about 500,000 people a year d…

Option #1 is actually fairly easy. But it often means taking a less exciting job than, say, an early stage startup. I have to agree with you that the author didn't have his priorities straight.

Re: I spent the last 15 years trying to become an American and failed

#337

Post by bruceb » Tue, Jun 23, 2015, 11:10 PM UTC

kristjansson wrote: post #216

bruceb wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is it foreign aid for students to come here pay higher tuition to some schools who would be much worse without them, spend money in the US and then go home? Most students don't come here and save a bunch of money. They are taking money from their home country and spending it in the US. It is like anti-foreign aid.

Not the parent, but: From the perspective of the students, yes, there is a financial transfer to the U.S. However, from national perspective, there is an economic transfer to the other nation. The U.S. university system represents the product of decades (centuries in some cases) of public and private investment. Foreign students and the societies they return to get the benefit of that investment - a better educated t…

You think all those going to school in the US are brilliant students? There are a ton of students who just have money and go to school in the US. They go to US universities who are in part propped up by the money spent by these students.

Having these type of students go back is not a lose. In fact they bring with them a demand for American goods, and culture.

Re: I spent the last 15 years trying to become an American and failed

#338

Post by lancewiggs » Tue, Jun 23, 2015, 11:12 PM UTC

geebee wrote: post #79

murbard2 wrote: post #12

I personally consider that opening borders is a moral imperative, but I understand why it is controversial. I understand that the arguments against "letting everyone in" have some merit, though I ultimately disagree with them. What is a real head scratcher to me is the US policy on highly-skilled immigrants. There are certainly some political constituencies in favor of those, but I can't think of anyone against, at l…

Any chance you'd be willing to write a bit more about your support for open borders? In particular, I'm interested in knowing whether you think this is a situation where it would be both moral and beneficial, or if you feel that it is simply wrong to limit where people can live and work based on where they were born (or even where their grandparents were born) even if the overall effect on current citizens of some re…

We haver good immigration numbers at the moment, and society is ever-changing for the better as we balance a healthy mix of cultures. The trick is to constrain the rate of immigration so that the infrastructre and society can adapt. As it is out biggest city, Auckland, is experiencing insanely high house prices that folks in the Bay area would grimace at. Aside from that it's a wonderful wonderful place to live, and the start-up ecosystem is thriving.

Re: I spent the last 15 years trying to become an American and failed

#339

Post by kafkaesque » Tue, Jun 23, 2015, 11:13 PM UTC

hartator wrote: post #322

chx wrote: post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know, I am a Canadian PR too and while nowhere near as bad as the US temporary worker situation, the transition from PR to citizen is not easy if you have the audacity to travel. And, thanks to this wonderful new bill, you can be stripped of your citizenship basically any time the government wants to without judicial oversight.

Waho, that's bad, do you have more details?

I'm a Canadian citizen (but I live in the US), so I think I know what' hes' referring to.

With Bill C-24, whether you were born in Canada or were naturalised, if you qualify for another citizenship or hold citizenship from another country, the government can take away your Canadian citizenship if it considers you to be a terrorist or threat to the country.

I'm against it.

Re: I spent the last 15 years trying to become an American and failed

#340

Post by protomyth » Tue, Jun 23, 2015, 11:14 PM UTC

winter_blue wrote: post #291

emodendroket wrote: post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you've ever come across any posts on HN regarding immigrant workers in technology (who are on the same visa, the H1B†, that the author of the Vox article was on), you will see a shockingly offensive amount contempt and hatred for highly-skilled immigrants. Well, that's probably largely because the system is being abused to bring in questionable workers and drive down wages.

No, it's mostly because those commentors on HN can't code worth their salt, and can't find a job, in an industry with thousands of unfilled positions, and need a scapegoat to pile hatred on. Most of the points stated on those hateful comments are either factually wrong, or overstate something as being the norm, when it probably happens less than 10% of the time. For one, if you are even decently good at software deve…

No, it's mostly because those commentors on HN can't code worth their salt, and can't find a job, in an industry with thousands of unfilled positions, and need a scapegoat to pile hatred on.

I don't think that's true, but I don't expect we'll be giving programming tests to each commentor to get hard data

Most of the points stated on those hateful comments are either factually wrong, or overstate something as being the norm, when it probably happens less than 10% of the time.

If you are accusing others of not using facts and citing sources, then you should do the same with your 10%

Secondly, although work visas are used by outsourcing companies a lot, they are also used heavily by companies like Facebook, Google, Microsoft, a lot of tech startups, etc, and other companies that are looking talented engineers.

Here, the stats are available http://www.myvisajobs.com/Reports/2015-H1B-Visa-Sponsor.aspx

Looking at the top 10 list the vast majority is body shop consultants. Depending which area in IBM the H1Bs are going to, it could be the entire top 10 is outsourcing companies.

Finally, the work visa requires the employee to be paid at least the prevailing wage for the position, and most of them get paid well above the prevailing wage, so the "driving down wages" point isn't valid either.

That certainly wasn't my experience in the 90's and I suspect given the numbers given on the previous website, it isn't true now. I don't really have the time to check the state-by-state to see.

Most of these commentors also fail to realize that there is really no other way to immigrate, besides a work visa, unless you want to go the family-based or refugeee route (not an option for most).

I certainly realize that, but that doesn't mean we have to like the H1B's version of immigration, and it doesn't mean hating H1B means we are anti-immigration. It does mean if painted in those strokes, most people will respond poorly.

When someone heaps abuse and hatred on highly-skilled immigrants (like those on HN), and call for an end to skilled immigration, they are really calling for an end to all immigration. It's noxious xenophobia and perhaps racially-motivated hatred, plain and simple.

That is the crud political argument that I dearly hate. Paint all of your opponents as the devil with things they don't believe. It serves no one but talk show hosts and is a major reason why immigration reform is impossible in the US. Hating the H1B program or any other program run by the US is not the same as hating immigration or immigrants. Disney is not the only company to abuse immigration and it seems to be a common experience is some areas of the country.

Hell, asking for the borders to be protected has very little to do with immigration but it is heaped in there with being "hateful" when it is a basic security problem.

I cannot imagine why we don't have a system for taking students who come to this country to be educated in college and give them a work visa not tied to a company. I wonder why we don't allow a pool of skilled workers into the country under circumstances where they have a job waiting but are not tied to that employer. Neither of these beliefs will make me not say the H1B program should be abolished as a failed experiment that was gamed and needs replacing.