SendGrid Fires Company Evangelist After Twitter Fracas • Hacker News Board

Re: SendGrid Fires Company Evangelist After Twitter Fracas

#331

Post by devilshaircut » Thu, Mar 21, 2013, 8:09 PM UTC

anigbrowl wrote: post #295

devilshaircut wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I in fact agree with you and think you are 100% right but I think you are parsing the situation incorrectly. In fact it seems to be Ms. Richards who will cause women to be reluctant to report real sexual harassment. Let me draw from a past experience of mine involving a female colleague who was sexually harassed. She related the situation to me and I had absolutely no doubt that what was said to her was inappropriate…

I have no problem with Adria richards reporting this to the PyCon organizaers - even if the joke was silly, even if it was not really sexual but anatomical or crude, even if it caused a bit of embarrassment to the joker and his friends to be verbally admonished. It's a fact that people's sensitivities and thresholds of offense vary significantly, and even an impersonal, non-specific utterance like 'ah, shit' could ca…

I didn't mean to indicate that I had a problem with her reporting conduct that is in violation of an event's attendance agreement. What I intended to express is precisely the other part of what you said - that the joke was not sexual, but anatomical in nature, and did not target her in as a female (Read the blog post if you haven't already - it clearly illustrates her position on the matter.). This is what I take issue with. That in framing it as an instance of gender discrimination or sexual harassment is a dilution of those terms that is damaging to these problems which absolutely do exist in the modern workplace.

Re: SendGrid Fires Company Evangelist After Twitter Fracas

#332

Post by king_jester » Thu, Mar 21, 2013, 8:10 PM UTC

SODaniel wrote: post #275

ericabiz wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Most [all, actually] of the women I've talked to about this are furious with her over how badly this portrays women." Okay, time to speak up! Hi, I'm a woman in tech. And this upset me, but not for the reasons you think. I agree that Adria went too far in publicly Tweeting and "name and shaming" these guys. But the vitriol and hate that has spewed forth online to her is what takes my breath away. Comments calling…

First off I agree 100% that the trolls that threaten and slur her on the blog/twitter etc. are morons. I would also like to point out that THAT is what trolls do! As a footnote: Adria moderates ALL comments on her blog, and allowing these trolls a forum seems a little counter productive as she must have chose to let these comments appear.

It's hard to say, when a blog blows up in traffic it can be really difficult to moderate comments effectively. A lot of times people will turn off comments altogether since the load is too much.

Re: SendGrid Fires Company Evangelist After Twitter Fracas

#333

Post by luigi » Thu, Mar 21, 2013, 8:10 PM UTC

blhack wrote: post #254

ericabiz wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Most [all, actually] of the women I've talked to about this are furious with her over how badly this portrays women." Okay, time to speak up! Hi, I'm a woman in tech. And this upset me, but not for the reasons you think. I agree that Adria went too far in publicly Tweeting and "name and shaming" these guys. But the vitriol and hate that has spewed forth online to her is what takes my breath away. Comments calling…

By the way, this isn't exclusive to tech. Women [unfortunately] face this in every male dominated field . It sucks, I know. My girlfriend works in a traditionally male dominated field, and she has to deal with this sort of thing constantly. But that interaction where the person assumed you weren't a dev[1] is only made worse by things like what has happened here. The signal to the dev community from Adria's reaction…

> but I can speak for the other women that I know.

Are you certain of that? Really think about it. Put yourself in the shoes of these women you know. Would they really want you speaking for them?

Re: SendGrid Fires Company Evangelist After Twitter Fracas

#334

Post by DanBC » Thu, Mar 21, 2013, 8:10 PM UTC

knowtheory wrote: post #291

zevyoura wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your experiences sound awful and truly disheartening, and I hope we can move towards a better and more inclusive future for everyone. However, I do feel compelled to make one point about this part: >Okay, time to speak up! Hi, I'm a woman in tech. And this upset me, but not for the reasons you think. I agree that Adria went too far in publicly Tweeting and "name and shaming" these guys. But the vitriol and hate that…

You are making a quantifiable assertion. If you'd really like to back up the claim, go grab some of the threads on this subject, and spider the account pages of the people posting to the threads. Plot them by amount of karma and # of days since the account was opened. As much as i do think /r/mensrights are assholes who are making this situation worse, i would assert that there is a preexisting strain of this behavio…

Anyone doing this needs to have showdead turned on - there was a bunch of stuff posted by new accounts that got downvoted.

Re: SendGrid Fires Company Evangelist After Twitter Fracas

#335

Post by rmc » Thu, Mar 21, 2013, 8:10 PM UTC

[deleted] wrote: post #258

raganwald wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would feel really uncomfortable if I was in the same room as this person. What if I accidentally say something that she finds offensive? Am I next? People say the same things all the time in companies where women complain about inappropriate sexuality. "What if I say something that offends her?" Most of us are good, inoffensive people. We are saddled with growing up in a world that is changing. It used to be accept…

[deleted]

The problem here is that the jokes were so innocuous that it would be difficult to tell just what would set her off and potentially get you fired.

It's very easy actually. Sexuality jokes. That's it.

Re: SendGrid Fires Company Evangelist After Twitter Fracas

#336

Post by saurik » Thu, Mar 21, 2013, 8:11 PM UTC

edgesrazor wrote: post #133

I think Playhaven owes everyone involved with this a better explanation on exactly why this employee was fired. Were they just looking for a reason to get rid of him in the first place, or did what happened at PyCon really justify his termination? Let's not forget - there's a lot of Sendgrid customers who have become collateral damage in this fiasco who have nothing to do with any of it, and probably still have no id…

If PlayHaven had reasons to fire someone, that is private between them and that person: just because it affects you does not mean it suddenly that person should have to lose their privacy. PlayHaven should not divulge any more information than they already have on this matter: it would be up to the person fired to authorize that and provide an explanation.

Re: SendGrid Fires Company Evangelist After Twitter Fracas

#337

Post by knowtheory » Thu, Mar 21, 2013, 8:11 PM UTC

s_baby wrote: post #316

knowtheory wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Discrimination is not a zero-sum game. Just because people are talking about the way women are treated doesn't mean that people don't care about or are ignoring how black people are treated. Your experience does not negate the offenses directed at women, nor does their experience negate yours. It's unacceptable to treat people like this full stop, whether you're in tech or not.

A) 2nd wave feminism is a zero-sum ideology. Try talking about the education gap in public education or male rape and see how fast it turns into a victim-hood pissing contest. B) 2nd wave feminists see gender as the most fundamental form of discrimination with economical and ethnocentric discrimination being derivative and secondary. I can see why an African-American individual would be offended by middle class white…

Which feminist circles are these?

How many 2nd wave feminists do you know? The only ones i know of live in all female enclaves in rural areas.

I kind of regret the knee jerk posting, because i think camus intent wasn't to convey what i was accusing him of conveying. I think it was just a poor choice of words.

But I do think that equal attention isn't necessarily paid to issues of discrimination against white women vs women (or anybody) of color. But that doesn't negate the legitimacy of the offenses that folks have to bear.

But solidarity in the face of discrimination is like one of the most important things for actual equality. If those who believe in equality don't support each other, then we're all really up shit creek.

Re: SendGrid Fires Company Evangelist After Twitter Fracas

#338

Post by zevyoura » Thu, Mar 21, 2013, 8:11 PM UTC

knowtheory wrote: post #291

zevyoura wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your experiences sound awful and truly disheartening, and I hope we can move towards a better and more inclusive future for everyone. However, I do feel compelled to make one point about this part: >Okay, time to speak up! Hi, I'm a woman in tech. And this upset me, but not for the reasons you think. I agree that Adria went too far in publicly Tweeting and "name and shaming" these guys. But the vitriol and hate that…

You are making a quantifiable assertion. If you'd really like to back up the claim, go grab some of the threads on this subject, and spider the account pages of the people posting to the threads. Plot them by amount of karma and # of days since the account was opened. As much as i do think /r/mensrights are assholes who are making this situation worse, i would assert that there is a preexisting strain of this behavio…

I don't really want to devote more mental energy to this topic than it's already consumed. I do agree that there are problematic elements within the tech community, and HN. I acknowledged this in my post:

"Of course, there is some overlap between [extremists] and the tech community..."

Re: SendGrid Fires Company Evangelist After Twitter Fracas

#339

Post by doktrin » Thu, Mar 21, 2013, 8:11 PM UTC

mwetzler wrote: post #287

blhack wrote: post #20

I really wish that this whole thing could have ended amicably (perhaps with Adria apologizing to the devs [by the way, the guy who was fired has already publicly apologized]). It's too bad that sendgrid had to fire her, I would never wish that somebody had their livlihood taken from them like that, but her job was to be a developer evangelist, which is a job she isn't realistically capable of performing anymore. I wo…

> the women I've talked to about this are furious with her This doesn't represent the views of all women in tech. What happened to Adria could happen to any of us outspoken women. She didn't handle the situation perfectly, but there's no way she could have known this would unfold in this way. She said she didn't want the guy to get fired and apologized to him. I'm horrified by what happened to her and now afraid the…

I agree with a lot of the sentiment you've expressed, so I want to share my perspective.

> She said she didn't want the guy to get fired and apologized to him.

She may have expressed sympathy, but she did not apologize. An apology may have gone a long way at stemming this disaster, but that's speculation at this point.

> I'm horrified by what happened to her and now afraid the same could happen to me.

Likewise, I'm horrified what happened to the men involved could happen to me. From everything I've read (which is not all-inclusive), their comments occurred in a 1-1 conversation during a loud presentation.

Moreover, frankly, it was innocuous if vaguely inappropriate. The dongle joke was not beyond the pale. It was not a firing offense, and it certainly did not deserve anyone's face being blasted all over Twitter along with harassment allegations.

Rest assured, we're all quite paranoid as a result of this.

>The nature of the attacks against Adria are EXTREMELY misogynistic (rape threats, death threats, people calling her a c_nt, b_tch, wh_re, etc) and many people have taken up a "burn her at the stake" mentality. They've also pulled into question her professional credibility and called her an affirmative action hire. They are saying this kind of behavior should be expected from someone with the domain "butyouragirl".

While I haven't spent much time on Twitter, I don't think it's really fair to draw a line between some of the extreme views voiced there and the tech community. This transcended tech very quickly, and never recovered. My sense is that many of the most vocal contributors to the discussion arrived at it second hand.

> I'm not mad at Adria. The larger and more striking problem is how much hatred for women exists in this community and how threatening that feels.

I may be blind to this as I'm not a woman, but I honestly don't perceive hatred towards women in the tech community.

The Twitter & internet mob response should not be taken to represent this community. It [tech] may be flawed, there may even be overlap, but they are not one and the same.

Re: SendGrid Fires Company Evangelist After Twitter Fracas

#340

Post by rmc » Thu, Mar 21, 2013, 8:11 PM UTC

misnome wrote: post #292

JohnBooty wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I would feel really uncomfortable if I was in the same > room as this person. What if I accidentally say > something that she finds offensive? Am I next? I wouldn't feel uncomfortable around her at all, because I find it very easy to avoid saying sexually inappropriate things to women I don't know. I have quite an off-color sense of humor myself. I joke a lot and a lot of those jokes involve sex, bodily functions,…

What about cases where you think it's just you and your friends joking between each other, and someone overhears, takes a picture of you and then publicly crucifies you online?

Well if you're at a conference with a publicised Code of Conduct that says no sexuality jokes, then... well... maybe don't do it there?

They literally wrote it down.