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Jensen: 'We've done our country a great disservice' by offshoring

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Re: Jensen: 'We've done our country a great disservice' by offshoring

#331

Post by sudosteph »

amluto wrote: post #270
closeparen wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A line cook makes no more burgers per hour, a hairdresser delivers no more or better haircuts, and a daycare worker watches no more children concurrently than they could have 25 years ago. Meanwhile the Magnificent 7 have emerged. Baumol effects might have raised wages a bit, sure. How could the relative positions of these workers not fall as all these tech-enabled and scale-enabled neighbors come on to the scene? Th…

> How could the relative positions of these workers not fall as all these tech-enabled and scale-enabled neighbors come on to the scene? I’d like to see this worked out for real. On the one hand, sure, a hairdresser cuts the same amount of hair as they did 25 years ago, and a fancy tech worker produces enormously more output than 25 or 50 years ago. On the other hand, why does it follow that that tech worker should h…

You seem to just be describing Marx's Labor theory of value.

It sounds more fair to pay people according to how much and how hard they work, but economically it tends not to work out.

Re: Jensen: 'We've done our country a great disservice' by offshoring

#332

Post by ecshafer »

volkadav wrote: post #229
jonhohle wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone paying for a family on a marketplace bronze plan, that’s a bargain! I think our premiums will exceed $20K this year. With all of the medical group consolidation, all of the wait time woes our Canadian friends always complained about are the reality here now as well. So I’m paying more than anywhere else on the world and have to wait 6 months for a PCP appointment. We have the worst of both worlds.

I'm pretty sure the original 10+k/yr/employee for good ppo coverage is a radical underestimate, for what it's worth, though I guess "way more than ten" is technically part of the "ten+" range, haha. The last time I had reason to look at full market-rate price for a family of four for a good PPO (Seattle market, circa five years ago, large tech company), it was around 3300 USD per month, or over $39k/yr. That was for…

I got the $10k a year employee from chatgpt with "Assume I have a company with 100 employees in New York, how much on average does it cost to provide health insurance" and it gave me poor, moderate and good ppo plan prices. I figure this seemed reasonable for ballpark figures from employer friends, so the numbers may be very well off.

Re: Jensen: 'We've done our country a great disservice' by offshoring

#333

Post by bpt3 »

foobarian wrote: post #166
duxup wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even with a good labor representation, is making cheap tshirts a job people want to do / a good job? I’m not convinced it is, or that it lasts.

I bet many people would find that job a lot more appealing than risking your life doing shopping gigs under time pressure, without even getting health insurance.

How exactly is doing instacart runs "risking your life" without using a definition for that term that involves any task where you're required to leave your house?

Re: Jensen: 'We've done our country a great disservice' by offshoring

#334

Post by losvedir »

0xbadcafebee wrote: post #208
brightball wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Manufacturing jobs bring the entire supply chain of the manufacturer with them. The area where I live, Greenville, SC used to be the textile capital of the world and then became essentially destitute when the entire industry offshored. BMW and Michelin locating their US HQ here essentially rebuilt this entire corner of the state with jobs and associated supply chains. Now, Greenville is booming with a more diverse ec…

> Manufacturing jobs bring the entire supply chain of the manufacturer with them. Not really... Manufacturing today is a global process and the entire supply chain is usually spread around the world. One example for a cotton shirt ( https://apps.npr.org/tshirt/ ): the cotton is grown in Mississippi. It's then shipped to Indonesia to spin the cotton into yarn. The yarn is shipped to Bangladesh for rough cut and sewing…

I'm not sure what you're arguing against, isn't that the point of the GP? That we can bring all that stuff back? Tesla makes things predominantly in-house and didn't use a supply chain all over the world. There are still garments grown and made entirely in the US, eg Duckworth. They're just expensive because there's not a lot of it left.

Re: Jensen: 'We've done our country a great disservice' by offshoring

#335

Post by mullingitover »

bflesch wrote: post #302
mullingitover wrote: post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you...doing to liberal-oriented forums what they do to Texas? Tarring everyone with the same brush?

Would you even call HN a liberal forum? It is full to the brim with profiteers who have no ethical framework except making money for US-based VCs. The past years have shown that many have no problem to change affiliation with the zeitgeist. I feel many Americans are secretly pro-Trump as long as they make money. If there would be more liberals in US tech we would see much more leaks coming from companies such as Appl…

> Would you even call HN a liberal forum?

I just look at the patterns of things that are downvoted to death. Comments that would come out of Peter Thiel or Elon Musk's mouth any day of the week are regularly downvoted to hell here.

It's not a matter of 'liberal' vs whatever anymore, it's a matter of expertise and basic ethics versus corruption riding upon anti-intellectualism, cloaked in naked bigotry. Say what you will about the prevailing value system among HN commenters, this place isn't that bad.

Re: Jensen: 'We've done our country a great disservice' by offshoring

#336

Post by whatshisface »

moogly wrote: post #31
freedomben wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know about Jensen specifically, and I can't remember the guy at the moment, but there have been a few tipped hands including one where the guy on national TV said something about "Americans should be gluing the iPhones together in the factory, not Chinese" and it really made a lot of this stuff click for me: they want to provide low-paying American jobs in American factories. That's probably not the whole vis…

That was Howard Lutnick. He's said a lot of, let's say "out-of-touch", things. He's not living in the real world, though. Motorola tried that not too long ago. Didn't go well. If you want to decimate American wages, you could do it, but if you at the same time deport people who were the most ready to work for a pittance, it's going to be hard to do this without riots. Then again, Stephen Miller wants those riots, so…

Howard Lutnick is "in charge," real or not it's his world we're living in. ;-)

Re: Jensen: 'We've done our country a great disservice' by offshoring

#337

Post by stanleykm »

BenoitEssiambre wrote: post #328
runako wrote: post #36

There are so many underlying changes to the established relationship between Labor and Capital in the US that would be a necessary part of keeping jobs here that it would effectively make us a completely different country. For example -- suppose one could snap one's fingers and "bring back" millions of manufacturing jobs. What would lead one to conclude those would be the kind of "good jobs" everyone is envisioning?…

Note that the "Labor vs Capital" distinction mostly means "workers vs retirees". The reason more money goes to capital these days is not necessarily that each retiree is getting more but that in an aging population, there's more retirees so it takes more resources diverted from workers to support this larger non working population. This problem can be solved with more babies 20 years ago or more immigration of worker…

I undestand what you are saying but retirees are not what people mean when they talk about Capital. They are talking about executives, fund managers, billionaires, and so on. People who actually control much of our society. Yes many of the funds are managing the retirements of working people but that does not necessarily need to be the case, nor do those retirees have any active ownership of the companies those funds invest in.

Re: Jensen: 'We've done our country a great disservice' by offshoring

#338

Post by andsoitis »

> The largest segment of the economy is manufacturing. And we’ve offshored that for too long. For 20 years. We got to bring that back.

Lie. The largest sector is Services at 70%. Besides, if it were the largest how can you also say it is offshored and needs to be brought back?

Re: Jensen: 'We've done our country a great disservice' by offshoring

#339

Post by antonymoose »

0xbadcafebee wrote: post #208
brightball wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Manufacturing jobs bring the entire supply chain of the manufacturer with them. The area where I live, Greenville, SC used to be the textile capital of the world and then became essentially destitute when the entire industry offshored. BMW and Michelin locating their US HQ here essentially rebuilt this entire corner of the state with jobs and associated supply chains. Now, Greenville is booming with a more diverse ec…

> Manufacturing jobs bring the entire supply chain of the manufacturer with them. Not really... Manufacturing today is a global process and the entire supply chain is usually spread around the world. One example for a cotton shirt ( https://apps.npr.org/tshirt/ ): the cotton is grown in Mississippi. It's then shipped to Indonesia to spin the cotton into yarn. The yarn is shipped to Bangladesh for rough cut and sewing…

You’re cherry-picking examples. Manufacturers can and do relocate the entire chain (or a super majority of it). I live outside of Greenville, SC also (previously Charleston) and when Boeing or BMW or Mercedes or Volvo bring a product out here they also bring hundreds of small time suppliers with them. Maybe the cotton for the cloth seats still come from Egypt but this is immaterial to the overall operation and the jobs it brings to a community.

Re: Jensen: 'We've done our country a great disservice' by offshoring

#340

Post by dfxm12 »

potato3732842 wrote: post #60
freedomben wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed, this was one of the first things I thought of too. I remember well the jokes about Perot being crazy, frequently used to dismiss his views. I'll never forget talking with an educated Perot voter (a friend of mine) at the time and actually being confronted with the real views, not a shallow strawman, and realizing I didn't have any good answers because I hadn't actually thought about it. That was a good matura…

>I remember well the jokes about Perot being crazy, frequently used to dismiss his views. Was he crazy or was he made to look that way as an excuse to dismiss his views? Sitting here in the 2020s knowing what we know now about "how it all works" it sure does cast a lot of doubt upon the past.

If you're interested and aren't willing to take OP's word for it, the 90s are recent enough that you can probably read contemporary news articles/opinions pieces about him online (and almost certainly at your library). You can also read up on his views/life on Wikipedia.
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