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Jensen: 'We've done our country a great disservice' by offshoring

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Re: Jensen: 'We've done our country a great disservice' by offshoring

#131

Post by psunavy03 »

runako wrote: post #36

There are so many underlying changes to the established relationship between Labor and Capital in the US that would be a necessary part of keeping jobs here that it would effectively make us a completely different country. For example -- suppose one could snap one's fingers and "bring back" millions of manufacturing jobs. What would lead one to conclude those would be the kind of "good jobs" everyone is envisioning?…

"We" have not "decided" anything other than collectively making decisions about what we are willing to pay for a given service. That ultimately is what sets wages. The only reason software development pays so well is because the market will bear it, and the market isn't some cabal of fat cats in top hats, monocles, and tails (or hoodies and Patagonia for that matter). It's the collective decisions of 330 million people.

Re: Jensen: 'We've done our country a great disservice' by offshoring

#132

Post by gruez »

luma wrote: post #93
runako wrote: post #36

There are so many underlying changes to the established relationship between Labor and Capital in the US that would be a necessary part of keeping jobs here that it would effectively make us a completely different country. For example -- suppose one could snap one's fingers and "bring back" millions of manufacturing jobs. What would lead one to conclude those would be the kind of "good jobs" everyone is envisioning?…

Service jobs are hard to export, it's just moving money around inside your country. Riveting is a job that produces goods that can be exported for incoming cash, elderly care isn't.

> Riveting is a job that produces goods that can be exported for incoming cash, elderly care isn't.

Where's the distinction between "moving money around inside your country" and "goods that can be exported for incoming cash"? If you go to mcdonalds to buy a burger instead of making it yourself, is that also "moving money around inside your country"? What about paying some carpenter to make a chair rather than making it yourself? Should we just cancel all jobs that can't plausibly produce stuff that can exported?

Re: Jensen: 'We've done our country a great disservice' by offshoring

#133

Post by cmxch »

intended wrote: post #75

Sadly, even the offshoring centers are losing to automation. I’ve personally seen even modest tools automate away 10s of jobs in a factory in the 2010s in India. Cutting, Punching, bending and moving metal sheets just done by 1 machine. Today We have lights out manufacturing. One thing I would highlight, is that the issue with offshoring wasn’t the loss of jobs as much as it was underemployment. Going from factory fo…

At this point, just cut checks from the firms that got us in this mess.

Don’t bother retraining, just make people financially whole at the cost of those who offshored/outsourced.

Re: Jensen: 'We've done our country a great disservice' by offshoring

#134

Post by duxup »

runako wrote: post #36

There are so many underlying changes to the established relationship between Labor and Capital in the US that would be a necessary part of keeping jobs here that it would effectively make us a completely different country. For example -- suppose one could snap one's fingers and "bring back" millions of manufacturing jobs. What would lead one to conclude those would be the kind of "good jobs" everyone is envisioning?…

Even with a good labor representation, is making cheap tshirts a job people want to do / a good job?

I’m not convinced it is, or that it lasts.

Re: Jensen: 'We've done our country a great disservice' by offshoring

#135

Post by tharkun__ »

khuey wrote: post #100
luma wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Service jobs are hard to export, it's just moving money around inside your country. Riveting is a job that produces goods that can be exported for incoming cash, elderly care isn't.

Depends on the service. Call center work was easy to export.

I don't think that's how your parent meant this.

It wasn't about the labour part and whether that is exportable in the off-shoring sense.

It's about the product being exportable (in the sense of being able to sell it for money outside of your country) vs. just having people within your own economy doing "left pocket right pocket".

And even with that, you can sell a waiter's service to other countries. You just have to first make them come - it's called tourism and comes with a whole lot of other jobs / supply chain(s) as well. Some of which can themselves be off-shored!

Re: Jensen: 'We've done our country a great disservice' by offshoring

#136

Post by bluGill »

afavour wrote: post #109
2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's why I don't like to blame corporations for outsourcing. The consumers outsource every time they select for cost.

I'm not aware of that many times where I've had a choice. I could get a nice, expensive dress shirt made in the US but for general clothing it's extremely difficult to buy domestic. Frankly, a lot of the corporations are still to blame because they're the ones actively concentrating wealth at the top. If I had more disposable income I'd buy more made in the US products but my budget simply doesn't allow it.

Clothing is one of the hardest things to automate production of. We have had the "women at a sewing machine" since about 1850. Bring that 1850 women to 2026 with the latest computerized sewing machine and she would be equally productive as she was back then in an hour, and even after working that machine for a decade would not be much faster than she was. We can do a few fancy stitches today that she would have had to do by hand with the machine - but mostly we do them less know even though the machines are faster.

Re: Jensen: 'We've done our country a great disservice' by offshoring

#137

Post by gruez »

afavour wrote: post #109
2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's why I don't like to blame corporations for outsourcing. The consumers outsource every time they select for cost.

I'm not aware of that many times where I've had a choice. I could get a nice, expensive dress shirt made in the US but for general clothing it's extremely difficult to buy domestic. Frankly, a lot of the corporations are still to blame because they're the ones actively concentrating wealth at the top. If I had more disposable income I'd buy more made in the US products but my budget simply doesn't allow it.

>If I had more disposable income I'd buy more made in the US products but my budget simply doesn't allow it.

How's that much different than the parent's claim of "The consumers outsource every time they select for cost."?

Re: Jensen: 'We've done our country a great disservice' by offshoring

#138

Post by samiv »

As long as you have power structures in place in society where labor is weak and capital class is strong the capital class is going to use all their wealth and power to extract everything they can from the rest of the society.

Regardless of whether you bring or do not bring manufacturing back you also have to fix these socioeconomic issues before all can prosper.

Re: Jensen: 'We've done our country a great disservice' by offshoring

#139

Post by nathan_compton »

petermcneeley wrote: post #73
nathan_compton wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess, but the real issue here is that capital will mount a concerted, decades long effort, to prevent global organization of labor. Its not like its per se impossible to get enough global labor organization: its just profoundly, aggressively, even murderously, opposed by people who have power. I guess we could think of that as just "part of the reality," but I think its a little silly not to at least mention it.

It is not realistic but even worse it isnt even desirable. There is huge swaths of opposition to "global organization of labor". The last thing you want is to oppress a bunch of people under your vision of perfect government.

I don't see how mass organization of labor constitutes an oppression of anyone.

Re: Jensen: 'We've done our country a great disservice' by offshoring

#140

Post by pepperball »

potato3732842 wrote: post #129
jillesvangurp wrote: post #116

The counter point here is that the US and EU have benefited with a lot of economic growth in the past few decades. The fact that this growth effect has now run its course just means that things may need to change again and that old assumptions may need to re-evaluated. Which might include looking at strategies to re-shore. Not because off shoring was a mistake 40-50 years ago; but because technology now enables autom…

What growth? A bunch of assholes in offices (edit: and a handful of C-suite above them of course) got rich on RSUs at the expense of the entire rest of the economy. The factory shut down and all those workers are getting screwed driving for some gig service or order picking for ecommerce or whatever. Number go up only matters if the number going up is strongly associated with things getting better. And it didn't even…

> What growth?

You can get $15/h jobs and cheap, giant spyware TV’s now. Are you not impressed with your bread and circuses?

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