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Phoenix: A modern X server written from scratch in Zig

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Re: Phoenix: A modern X server written from scratch in Zig

#331

Post by KetoManx64 »

torginus wrote: post #258
shakna wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Until Wayland actually has an accesibility story, X is really the only choice. Don't think most grassroots projects will have that.

Isn't accessibility outside of the scope of Wayland, whose purpose is to composite application buffers, and deliver input events? Something like a screen reader needs to talk to an app and query the toolkit for the contents of a window in a semantic way - that's a toolkit feature not a compositor one.

What does this matter for blind people who want to use Linux? All that matters to them is that it's super complicated and nobody wants to work with the tech to make screen readers work on Wayland.

Re: Phoenix: A modern X server written from scratch in Zig

#332

Post by wakawaka28 »

loeg wrote: post #322
LeFantome wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think the problem was with “phoenix”. It was Project Phoenix (resurrection of the Netscape browser). This resulted in the Firebird browser (Firebird and Thunderbird). But Firebird was an existing database that objected to the name. So, we got Firefox instead. At least that is how I remember it.

Yeah, me too. https://website-archive.mozilla.org/www.mozilla.org/firefox_...

https://www.zdnet.com/article/mozilla-holds-fire-in-naming-f...

All the first 3 names were taken. They probably had to bribe even the holders of the Firefox trademark to get it (though the terms were never disclosed).

Re: Phoenix: A modern X server written from scratch in Zig

#333

Post by KetoManx64 »

snvzz wrote: post #234
wmf wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For people who absolutely have to have X11 this looks like a better plan than XLibre.

Long term? Perhaps, if successful. I am hopeful. But, right now, XLibre[0] is available, ready for use and very active. 0. https://github.com/X11Libre/xserver

Just got a major release as well with tons of new contributors and fixes/additions: https://github.com/X11Libre/xserver/releases/tag/xlibre-xser...

Re: Phoenix: A modern X server written from scratch in Zig

#334

Post by wakawaka28 »

lmz wrote: post #171
LeFantome wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think the problem was with “phoenix”. It was Project Phoenix (resurrection of the Netscape browser). This resulted in the Firebird browser (Firebird and Thunderbird). But Firebird was an existing database that objected to the name. So, we got Firefox instead. At least that is how I remember it.

Wasn't it renamed because of these people? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenix_Technologies

Yes, and that was just the start lol... https://www.zdnet.com/article/mozilla-holds-fire-in-naming-f...

Re: Phoenix: A modern X server written from scratch in Zig

#335

Post by reppap »

linsomniac wrote: post #295
reppap wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't really understand what is supposedly missing in Wayland for productivity users? At work I have been using gnome with the wayland backend for years at this point and I can't really figure out anything that's missing.

>what is supposedly missing in Wayland My desktop is a bit long in the tooth (22.04), but I've long given up on trying to screen shot or screen share from Wayland. I have my Macbook sitting next to it and use it for those things, where it works basically flawlessly. Kind of waiting for 26.04 to upgrade at this point, but I'm not really expecting any of this to be better yet. edit: If I had it to do over again, I woul…

I'm running fedora and have been screenshoting and screen sharing (with the teams PWA) just fine. So might be time to get something newer.

Re: Phoenix: A modern X server written from scratch in Zig

#336

Post by mhd »

manytimesaway wrote: post #6
sergiotapia wrote: post #3

This is a really really bad name. There's already a Phoenix that is well known in tech. https://phoenixframework.org/ OP if you're the author I suggest you rename to avoid confusion. Don't name it Rails either haha!

This is a really really bad comment. I've never heard of the framework you're talking about and I thought you were talking about the Firefox prototype.

I'm also pretty sure that there was an "Elixir" in IT before there was the language said framework is written in… I mean, given that the letter "X" is in both Unix and X11, I'm pretty sure most words containing it have already been used once or twice.

(I still think they should've stuck with "Firebird", little danger of confusing a browser with a database system mostly used by Delphi devs)

Re: Phoenix: A modern X server written from scratch in Zig

#338

Post by IshKebab »

criticalfault wrote: post #266
IshKebab wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Users? Obviously xorg devs want to work on something that isn't ancient and crufty. But users want something that actually works and it has taken almost 2 decades to get to that point. Actually I still have more issues on Wayland than X. Although it is at least starting to swing in the other direction - e.g. KDE's screen recording feature doesn't work on X. The button's still there but if you click it nothing happens…

Most users have no idea what is behind. They don't want X or anything X related, they want things to work. Most of the things worked before 2020, including legacy things through xwayland. Now all things work, except maybe remote apps through ssh ootb, but for this you can either use RDP or Waypipe. The only thing maybe worth discussing is video acceleration. this aside, I have been using gnome on Wayland for years an…

I don't know how you can read about the many experiences people have with Wayland not working - even now, let alone 2020 - and conclude that "all things work".

I think we are finally at the point where you can say most things work and it's silly to go back to X11, but even so Wayland has clearly been a huge failure.

Re: Phoenix: A modern X server written from scratch in Zig

#339

Post by lelanthran »

MangoToupe wrote: post #46
redeeman wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

BS, windows and macos cant even do proper window managing for a start, and then it just goes downwards from there on.. You can perhaps install various weird third party things, but it does not come with it by default. If you took people who absolutely never tried any computing, and gave them macos, windows, and for example Plasma, they would NOT consider windows or macos to be ready for the desktop. If you go 15 year…

[flagged]

>> windows and macos cant even do proper window managing for a start

> Well they certainly manage them better than x11 and wayland.

X11 doesn't manage Windows. You'd know this if you used it, and if you've used it, you'd know why some consider the window management on Windows and MacOS very primitive.

Re: Phoenix: A modern X server written from scratch in Zig

#340

Post by eptcyka »

coryrc wrote: post #209
eptcyka wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the issues are trivially resolved, why did the authors of X decided to abandon X? If the issues could be resolved, why were they not resolved? I am using wayland for more than 5 years now, it just works. X did not. Xscreensaver/lock screens on Qubes are still broken. What features is Wayland the protocol missing to allow supporting Xfce?

> If the issues are trivially resolved, why did the authors of X decided to abandon X? They convinced their employers Wayland would be better? > Xscreensaver/lock screens on Qubes are still broken. Most people aren't nation-state-level targets and don't worry about security to that degree. But they do like global hotkeys.

I care about being able to use the same password between the display manager, tty and lock screen auth. Yet, I cannot.

I think the original maintainers and developers of Xorg would be the best people to choose if it is worthwhile to continue working around X or do something else. Yes, X provided functionality that now WMs get to implement themselves - since the developers of Xorg worked closer to Gnome and Qt people, and Gnome and Qt people were OK with this, this didn’t feel like a horrible trade off. And given the diversity of Wayland window managers today, I don’t think it mattered all too much.

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