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BMW Overtakes Tesla in European EV Sales for First Time

electriccarsreport.com

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Re: BMW Overtakes Tesla in European EV Sales for First Time

#331

Post by throwadobe »

throw0101d wrote: post #325
throwadobe wrote: post #321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The shareholders literally own the company, so they are the ones who get to decide what gets maximized. Most shareholders decide they want returns to themselves to be maximized. Not all will in every single company at every point in time, but it's likely the case 99.9% of the time.

> The shareholders literally own the company […] They do not actually. * https://archive.ph/VCUp4 / https://www.ft.com/content/7bd1b20a-879b-11e5-90de-f44762bf9... * https://www.pqmagazine.com/the-myth-of-shareholder-ownership... * https://www.forbes.com/sites/petergeorgescu/2021/07/21/the-s... * https://edwardslaw.ca/blog/shareholders-agreements-in-canada... * https://www.ippr.org/articles/who-owns-a-company * https…

Those are opinion pieces and meant to be contrarian. Shareholders by definition own the equity of the company. You're confounding the equity with the enterprise, while also ignoring the meaning of "control".

Having IOUs from the company in the form of future goods or services owed to customers, interest payments owed to debtholders or future taxes owed to the government do not equate to having an actual ownership in the business.

Re: BMW Overtakes Tesla in European EV Sales for First Time

#332

Post by jjav »

blackeyeblitzar wrote: post #164
epistasis wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, Tesla's execution has been really terrible. There's some really good tech inside their cars, but the direction of which cars to make, when, and the investments in non-car tech, the over-promising of "Full Self Driving," etc. All huge detractors. There's also the CEO, who has a huge public profile, deciding to become extremely political, which smart CEOs usually avoid doing because it has little potential to help…

> There's also the CEO, who has a huge public profile, deciding to become extremely political, which smart CEOs usually avoid doing because it has little potential to help and lots of potential to hurt. I don’t know about this. Virtually all CEOs of tech companies bent over backwards to support BLM and many donated tens of millions to those BLM affiliated organizations - many of whom turned out to be grifters. But if…

> when Musk advocates for a minimalist approach to moderation it suddenly becomes “fascist”

There has been nothing minimalist in Musk's moderation, he's been banning people on twitter all along. His whole free speech thing turned out to apply only to speech he likes and ban the rest.

Re: BMW Overtakes Tesla in European EV Sales for First Time

#333

Post by makeitdouble »

giobox wrote: post #311
makeitdouble wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is the EV/PHEV separation meaningful when comparing to other makers ? PHEV are mainly used on their electric capacity, on daily short trips.

It matters enormously if you want to meaningfully compare EV production between two manufacturers, yes. BEVs and PHEVs are not the same thing, and the size of batteries used in each is radically different. BYD have a company policy of conflating their EV/PHEV numbers (their own made up term “new energy vehicles”) as it makes their “EV” numbers look great in misleading statistics like the one you linked. Most people a…

Tesla and BYD having different philosophies doesn't mean we need to adjust to Tesla to look at their numbers. If they're targeting the same job to be done (getting from A to B on an electric charge) they're in the same overall market.

We can subdivide on long range travel, trucks, lightweight mobility, cars with a US plug, or having a plugin architecture or not, but that's not what the article was about, nor what we're looking at here IMHO.

Re: BMW Overtakes Tesla in European EV Sales for First Time

#334

Post by jackedEngineer »

1vuio0pswjnm7 wrote: post #260
jackedEngineer wrote: post #88

I did some digging.The title is misleading - YTD Tesla is way ahead - https://imgur.com/56eG7CN Actual Numbers - BMW registration for the month of July 2024 were up by 300~ cars. Original Source - https://www.jato.com/resources/media-and-press-releases/bmw-... Quoting this comment - streptomycin- Yes https://i.imgur.com/ZNv1AyD.jpg Although BMW is making some nice EVs and they are selling more than they used to, the…

"The title is misleading." OK, let's assume the title misled me. What do I now believe as a result that is incorrect. Titles are not summaries. It is expected that readers will read the body of the submission not merely the title. Is the JATO Dynamics report accurate. The title is simply repeating an alleged fact contained in the report. Is it false. If all a reader ever does is read titles, I am afraid "misled" is a…

Titles may not be summaries, but you would be surprised to know how many people form their opinion about the body of an article based solely on the title.

Your statement about people defending Tesla and Musk always coming across as "try hard" is subjective. I could say the same about you, who consistently criticize Tesla and Musk as try hard, but I won't, because I prefer to focus on the facts rather than making generalizations.

I would have posted a similar comment if the submission title was something like "Samsung beats Apple in July sales by 300 devices" while the article revealed that, year-to-date, Apple had actually outsold Samsung by a 3:1 margin and if it wasn’t true. In such a case, I would consider the title to be misleading.

I chose to comment on this specific post because I am familiar with the automotive industry. It appears that the source cited in the article may be misleading because The data from https://eu-evs.com/bestSellersCharts/ALL/Brands/Bar/Year-by-... does not seem to support the claim made in the title.

In the future, instead of attacking the poster as "try hard," it would be best for everyone to read beyond the title, verify the sources, and engage in constructive discussions.

Re: BMW Overtakes Tesla in European EV Sales for First Time

#335

Post by giobox »

makeitdouble wrote: post #333
giobox wrote: post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It matters enormously if you want to meaningfully compare EV production between two manufacturers, yes. BEVs and PHEVs are not the same thing, and the size of batteries used in each is radically different. BYD have a company policy of conflating their EV/PHEV numbers (their own made up term “new energy vehicles”) as it makes their “EV” numbers look great in misleading statistics like the one you linked. Most people a…

Tesla and BYD having different philosophies doesn't mean we need to adjust to Tesla to look at their numbers. If they're targeting the same job to be done (getting from A to B on an electric charge) they're in the same overall market. We can subdivide on long range travel, trucks, lightweight mobility, cars with a US plug, or having a plugin architecture or not, but that's not what the article was about, nor what we'…

It’s a question of basic statistics; your original link does not compare apples to oranges.

When you measure something to compare, it’s helpful if it is the same.

This trick of conflating PHEV numbers is something most manufacturers don’t do, and BYD have been called out on in the past.

So many key players in EV (Tesla, rivian, lucid…) will never make a gas car - so of course BYD including over half a million gas cars in their “EV” stats makes for an unfair comparison across the industry.

Re: BMW Overtakes Tesla in European EV Sales for First Time

#336

Post by leesec »

goodluckchuck wrote: post #294
leesec wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

More models is worse. Anyways theres two mass market cars, one got a refresh recently the other next year

True, but it’s a numbers game. If there are 5 electric cars on the market, 2 are Teslas and the others are Nissan Leaf comparables then Tesla will get a lot of sales. If there are 80 different models on the market and Tesla makes 5 models… that’s a tiny percentage of the choice that consumers have to pick from.

There's a lot of models of laptops and yet people still choose the Macbook

Re: BMW Overtakes Tesla in European EV Sales for First Time

#337

Post by [deleted] »

throwadobe wrote: post #331
throw0101d wrote: post #325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The shareholders literally own the company […] They do not actually. * https://archive.ph/VCUp4 / https://www.ft.com/content/7bd1b20a-879b-11e5-90de-f44762bf9... * https://www.pqmagazine.com/the-myth-of-shareholder-ownership... * https://www.forbes.com/sites/petergeorgescu/2021/07/21/the-s... * https://edwardslaw.ca/blog/shareholders-agreements-in-canada... * https://www.ippr.org/articles/who-owns-a-company * https…

Those are opinion pieces and meant to be contrarian. Shareholders by definition own the equity of the company. You're confounding the equity with the enterprise, while also ignoring the meaning of "control". Having IOUs from the company in the form of future goods or services owed to customers, interest payments owed to debtholders or future taxes owed to the government do not equate to having an actual ownership in…

[deleted]

Re: BMW Overtakes Tesla in European EV Sales for First Time

#338

Post by lern_too_spel »

throwadobe wrote: post #323
lern_too_spel wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not quite. Tesla's mission is to do what its voting shareholders want. Usually, shareholders want to maximize their returns, but Tesla's shareholders voted to reduce their returns to overpay Musk for work already done.

Presumably because they believe keeping Musk will increase value long term, so they are still maximizing the value of the future cashflows discounted to the present. The size of Musk's ownership stake adds another layer to this metric, but at the limit, that really that just means the words "they" in my previous statement can be replaced with "Elon Musk"

No, the reason most voters gave is that the payment was promised, not that it maximized their returns. There are any number of projects that Tesla could spend $50 billion on that would provide a greater return to investors than giving it to Musk. Even giving him a fraction of that would have been enough to retain Musk over giving him nothing, if they really believe Musk's leadership will be positive for future returns.

Re: BMW Overtakes Tesla in European EV Sales for First Time

#339

Post by verzali »

throwadobe wrote: post #323
lern_too_spel wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not quite. Tesla's mission is to do what its voting shareholders want. Usually, shareholders want to maximize their returns, but Tesla's shareholders voted to reduce their returns to overpay Musk for work already done.

Presumably because they believe keeping Musk will increase value long term, so they are still maximizing the value of the future cashflows discounted to the present. The size of Musk's ownership stake adds another layer to this metric, but at the limit, that really that just means the words "they" in my previous statement can be replaced with "Elon Musk"

I suspect many Tesla shareholder believe they are investing in Musk, rather than just Tesla. That explains much of their behavior.

Re: BMW Overtakes Tesla in European EV Sales for First Time

#340

Post by inemesitaffia »

metabagel wrote: post #165
Retric wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Multiple in thread mentions they cancelled their order due in whole or part to him, they are not alone. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41334247 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41334102 etc Personally, I decided to not to buy a Tesla because of how he over hyped self driving and then tried to weasel out by calling the system ‘full self driving’ when it’s clearly not. It doesn’t mean the cars are actually cr…

I've boycotted AT&T for over 25 years, after AT&T charged me for the phone calls made after I had reported my phone stolen. I was young and stupid, so I paid, but I never gave them my business again. In regard to Musk, I'll avoid anything he is related to. He doesn't treat others with respect, but he demands it for himself. He's egotistical, highly emotional, and impulsive. He's successful only because he inherited w…

I'd like to see these billions
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