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NASA investigation finds Boeing hindering Americans' return to moon

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Re: NASA investigation finds Boeing hindering Americans' return to moon

#331

Post by Dylan16807 »

dotnet00 wrote: post #324
Dylan16807 wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They didn't complain about SpaceX itself getting money, they complained that some of that money will go to Musk.

That's a meaningless distinction though. What's the logic of not choosing the most reliable supplier in the industry just because the owner is rich?

> That's a meaningless distinction though.

Just because there's currently no way to separate the two financially doesn't mean the complaint is invalid. There are multiple plausible ways for those finances to become untangled.

> just because the owner is rich

Him being just "rich" (7-8 figure threshold) is barely a factor. It's the extreme level and the way he acts.

Re: NASA investigation finds Boeing hindering Americans' return to moon

#332

Post by BizyDev »

Don't worry you Americans.

Your government will soon find a reason to sue Airbus (corruption, unfair competition, etc.) in order to extract its secrets and supply them to Boeing, and voila, Airbus' technological lead will be wiped out.

See Alstom's story for a manual of the perfect economic imperialist : https://www.economist.com/business/2019/01/17/how-the-americ...

Re: NASA investigation finds Boeing hindering Americans' return to moon

#333

Post by trentnix »

BirAdam wrote: post #280
elzbardico wrote: post #264

What MBAs and Financists destroyed so far: - Western Industry. - The blue-collar middle class - The Middle Class - Our health care system - Our education - Western Economic Leadership. - Social Mobility Now they are busy destroying western technology, science and innovation on their never-ending selfish wealth-extraction quest. They convinced us that our homes are investments, so they can fleece us with their usurary…

No one really “let them” destroy things. This is one of the key dangers of majoritarian government. The moment that people can vote for representatives the representatives will be purchased, and later, the votes will purchased. Once this happens, money will be destroyed to allow the purchasing class to rob the wealth of the civilization, and this leads to financialization of economics. This pattern has been repeated…

1971, you say?

https://wtfhappenedin1971.com/

Re: NASA investigation finds Boeing hindering Americans' return to moon

#334

Post by notabee »

dehrmann wrote: post #138

I wonder how much of this is Boeing and how much is NASA. It's very easy to throw Boeing under the bus right now, and they might even deserve it, but at a minimum, NASA deserves blame for not doing due diligence. They're also trying to build something that we've largely forgotten how to build. It's a different NASA, and different Boeing, and design technology and manufacturing is completely different. It isn't reason…

The blame should honestly go to Congress, because they keep interfering in the process to force NASA to stick with SLS. NASA has tried several times to ditch this albatross around their necks only to be scolded by influential senators determined to keep money flowing into their states despite the overall project failing wildly.

https://arstechnica.com/science/2021/02/so-long-senator-shel...

Re: NASA investigation finds Boeing hindering Americans' return to moon

#335

Post by knowaveragejoe »

okanat wrote: post #35
akira2501 wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We're the only nation that has ever done it. It seems like unchecked graft is our current main problem. In the scope of all problems of returning people to the Moon this is both expected and the easiest to deal with.

When that was happening, the US was spending ungodly amount of money to show Soviets that they can take ~a nuke~ sorry people to the Moon and back. Boeing, Lockheed etc. were still engineering oriented companies full of projects and management opportunities for innovative and risk-taking people. Starting with the Reagan era, they are now emptied out rent seekers full of car salesmen who look up to Jack Welch as a rol…

> Boeing, Lockheed etc. were still engineering oriented companies full of projects and management opportunities for innovative and risk-taking people. Starting with the Reagan era, they are now emptied out rent seekers full of car salesmen who look up to Jack Welch as a role model.

To be fair, Boeing, Lockheed etc won't be the decisive players putting humans back on the moon from the US. It'll be smaller and scrappier players more akin to startups.

Re: NASA investigation finds Boeing hindering Americans' return to moon

#336

Post by knowaveragejoe »

_moof wrote: post #163
okanat wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When that was happening, the US was spending ungodly amount of money to show Soviets that they can take ~a nuke~ sorry people to the Moon and back. Boeing, Lockheed etc. were still engineering oriented companies full of projects and management opportunities for innovative and risk-taking people. Starting with the Reagan era, they are now emptied out rent seekers full of car salesmen who look up to Jack Welch as a rol…

And there were a lot more players in aerospace then too. Apart from Boeing and Lockheed, Apollo also involved North American Aviation, Grumman, Rocketdyne, General Dynamics, Pratt & Whitney, Douglas, TRW, and Bell. Of those, only General Dynamics and Pratt & Whitney have not been acquired or merged into other companies.

Are there not _far_ more players in aerospace today than what you listed? Maybe those of today are not at the scale of the companies you listed at the height of the cold war, but we're really in a new era of space industry.

Re: NASA investigation finds Boeing hindering Americans' return to moon

#337

Post by knowaveragejoe »

desperate wrote: post #53
whatshisface wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Our GDP is about 50x higher now than it was then, in real terms.

Yeah but money can't pay for skill that doesn't exist anymore.

The depth of breadth and skill is still there, even moreso today. Whether Boeing will catalyze that is in question, not the fundamentals.

Re: NASA investigation finds Boeing hindering Americans' return to moon

#338

Post by electriclove »

elzbardico wrote: post #264

What MBAs and Financists destroyed so far: - Western Industry. - The blue-collar middle class - The Middle Class - Our health care system - Our education - Western Economic Leadership. - Social Mobility Now they are busy destroying western technology, science and innovation on their never-ending selfish wealth-extraction quest. They convinced us that our homes are investments, so they can fleece us with their usurary…

You mention health care and education. Have you considered government’s role in this? https://kottke.org/19/02/cheap-tvs-and-exorbitant-education-...

Re: NASA investigation finds Boeing hindering Americans' return to moon

#339

Post by practicemaths »

chii wrote: post #319
mmcconnell1618 wrote: post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It wasn't always this way. Milton Friedman introduced the idea in the 1970s that businesses could ignore their workers and communities because if they focused on profit, that would benefit everyone. Shareholder Theory elevates the stockholders above all others and leads to stock buybacks and optimizing for wealth extraction. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedman_doctrine

> that would benefit everyone. no, it would benefit the shareholders. The regulations imposed by the gov't (which is meant to be representitive) would reign in the excess externalization. Everyone would benefit from competition, when it does happen.

I do not understand the statement "Everyone would benefit from competition".

How is that not an oxymoron?

Surely those that do not win in a competition are losers. How is that a benefit to them?

Re: NASA investigation finds Boeing hindering Americans' return to moon

#340

Post by nordsieck »

Ajedi32 wrote: post #316
kaliqt wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So that's two nerds total.

Stoke Space also has a pretty huge rocket nerd at the helm[1]. And of course there's Blue Origin (even though they seem to be taking forever). The industry has been flourishing lately, though (with the possible exception of Blue Origin) it'll be a long time before these younger companies produce anything capable of rivaling Falcon 9, let alone Starship. [1]: https://everydayastronaut.com/stoke-space/

> And of course there's Blue Origin (even though they seem to be taking forever)

Ever since Bezos installed David Limp as CEO, it seems like they've been able to ship stuff. It's hard to know if he was set up for success by his predecessor, but their older no press policy prevented anyone from knowing it, or if he changed the company culture for the better.

Regardless, it appears like Blue Origin is likely to launch New Glenn this year. Or, at least the DoD thinks it's likely enough that they agreed to onramp Blue Origin to NSSLv3 (pending a successful launch).

> it'll be a long time before these younger companies produce anything capable of rivaling Falcon 9

I don't think it'll be that long.

* Blue Origin's New Glenn should launch in 2024-2025.

* RocketLab's Neutron should launch in 2025-2027.

* Relativity's Terran R should launch in 2026-2028.

That's remarkably soon.

Of course, as you point out, Starship should be operational quite soon. It'll be exciting to see how things shake out.

My personal opinion is that SpaceX will move to payload based pricing, somewhat akin to their current rideshare pricing. I'm just pulling numbers out of the air, but something like $10m + $3m/tonne. That way they can compete for smaller payloads while also being paid appropriately for launching really heavy stuff. However it ends up, I'm sure pricing will be heavily influenced by the competition when it comes out.

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