Want good programmers? Then pay them. • Hacker News Board

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#331

Post by kamaal » Thu, May 03, 2012, 6:02 PM UTC

potatolicious wrote: post #306

cletus wrote: post #264

The comparison to equity being getting paid in lottery tickets is apt (IMHO). Nevertheless there has never been a short of pioneering spirits willing to risk it all to strike it rich (just look at the gold rushes in the Dakotas, California and elsewhere). This is really the modern day equivalent. There was a thread here last year where people talked about their exits. A common story was "worked my ass off for X years…

I really disagree with the notion of the post here, and I think this part really nails why: > "Thing is, I'm never looking at my watch because I enjoy what I do." So do I. In fact, I love what I do. I'd be extremely disappointed if I had to stop going to work. But it isn't the only thing I enjoy . You want stable hours and liberal time off because there is more enjoyment to your life than writing code and creating so…

Exactly, One more thing that I didn't like about it was the feeling that its OK for the employer to overwork you and then not compensate it, under the pretext of 'interesting work'.

This is an old plan used by most companies.

I like doing what I do, but I would love to something else if I had the money to free me up.

For most people, their area of least incompetence becomes their passion.

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#332

Post by Apreche » Thu, May 03, 2012, 6:03 PM UTC

tensor wrote: post #305

eli_gottlieb wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He didn't say he would do nothing when he got rich. He said he would code whatever he wanted, without regard to making money. Big difference. An independently wealthy person could become a star of the open-source world.

That is true. However, his comment still seems downright hostile towards anyone he might work with. It comes across as though he tolerates working with people only by force and has no respect for his coworkers at all. No doubt his phrasing is overboard, perhaps due to a poor working environment or mistreatment by management. Personally, even I "won the lottery" tomorrow, I would not just abandon the projects I'm work…

Actually my working environment is pretty great, and my co-workers are cool. That's why it's hard to convince me to leave.

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#333

Post by infinite8s » Thu, May 03, 2012, 6:03 PM UTC

randomdata wrote: post #226

Evernoob wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No way. I'm not going to do free work for your company to make money off in the hopes that you'll give me a job later.

What if you did the work for free, but the company would have to pay you for your work if they liked the results, even if they ultimately did not hire you? Wouldn't that still be better than working on some contrived game that has no real-world relevance for free?

Then you aren't really working for free. More like on contract.

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#334

Post by infinite8s » Thu, May 03, 2012, 6:06 PM UTC

horsehead wrote: post #262

masterzora wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, yes they are. I don't even see all of the resumes submitted to my company since they are filtered through the recruiters and our HR guy but the ones I do see still need a fizzbuzz test more often than not. Granted, it is not a thing you should give everyone . I can usually tell when I look at a resume that such a thing is likely to be pretty pointless (It points me to a github account I can look at instead? Why…

While this is a little disappointing in that it speaks to the quality (or lack thereof) of developers coming out of college, or elsewhere, it is also really encouraging too! the fizzbuzz problem is actually incredibly simple and I was able to write code out by hand that worked in my python interpreter. Hopefully I'll have some good github stuff to point potential employers to soon (i'm working on some things now). Bu…

Well, not to burst your bubble, but fizzbuzz is a negative filter (ie passing it is the minimum needed to even be considered for a dev job).

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#335

Post by randomdata » Thu, May 03, 2012, 6:10 PM UTC

infinite8s wrote: post #333

randomdata wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if you did the work for free, but the company would have to pay you for your work if they liked the results, even if they ultimately did not hire you? Wouldn't that still be better than working on some contrived game that has no real-world relevance for free?

Then you aren't really working for free. More like on contract.

But that would only be true if they decide to use the results. Otherwise, it's just another contrived quiz with no real-world merit. The worst case is remains the same as the status quo, but the better case is that you'll be paid for your time in the interview.

It still seems like a positive step. No quizzes at all seems like an even better way, but I did qualify the point with the assumption that the quiz would happen regardless.

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#336

Post by khuey » Thu, May 03, 2012, 6:13 PM UTC

3pt14159 wrote: post #296

Jabbles wrote: post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there something intrinsically wrong with giving someone 30 days' holiday per year? Surely this is the same kind of freedom to spend your time as you wish that Google (with its 20% time) is famous for? As you said, in Europe this is common, and the viewpoint that it "smacks of entitlement" is puzzling. Is it just a cultural difference? I'm don't think there is any evidence either way that this affects productivity.

In my experience Europeans have a different view of life than North Americans. Especially East coasters. In work I find they are more interested in perfection and creativity, and less so on productivity, output, and efficiency. Thirty days of holiday a year is affordable if North Americans would be fine with houses that were 13% less spacious, but most North Americans I met heavily optimize living space, where Europe…

All US employees at Mozilla have 21 days + 10 government-ish holidays off so it's not unheard of.

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#337

Post by moocow01 » Thu, May 03, 2012, 6:13 PM UTC

cletus wrote: post #264

The comparison to equity being getting paid in lottery tickets is apt (IMHO). Nevertheless there has never been a short of pioneering spirits willing to risk it all to strike it rich (just look at the gold rushes in the Dakotas, California and elsewhere). This is really the modern day equivalent. There was a thread here last year where people talked about their exits. A common story was "worked my ass off for X years…

"Never working more than 40 hours a week nor staying late? It just smacks of entitlement."

Working 40 hours a week is considered being "entitled"? What is entitlement is employers pushing down pay rates by paying on salary while pressuring for extra hours without overtime. Fostering this culture and attitude just collectively serves to push down everyone's pay rate and detracts from the attractiveness of our field.

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#338

Post by cpeterso » Thu, May 03, 2012, 6:17 PM UTC

reinhardt wrote: post #319

3pt14159 wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my experience Europeans have a different view of life than North Americans. Especially East coasters. In work I find they are more interested in perfection and creativity, and less so on productivity, output, and efficiency. Thirty days of holiday a year is affordable if North Americans would be fine with houses that were 13% less spacious, but most North Americans I met heavily optimize living space, where Europe…

Does vacation here mean paid only or total? Personally I wouldn't mind that much if it meant paid only and I was allowed to take a pay cut in exchange for more (unpaid) vacation days.

In the US, "vacation days" and "sick days" are PTO (Paid Time-Off). So workers can sometimes "cash out" vacation days rather than taking them off, but it is uncommon to take unpaid days off.

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#339

Post by matwood » Thu, May 03, 2012, 6:17 PM UTC

horsehead wrote: post #213

throwaway1979 wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm really glad you mentioned "cute little puzzles". I am sick of them. I'm not really sure who has sufficient time to spend blazing the employer with feats of their programming prowess (I was going to say only undergrads would do that - however, many undergrads in top programs have little time to bathe). If this was big companies being stupid, I'd get it. The HN crowd ... some of the smartest hackers around do littl…

Maybe I'm just incredibly naive, but are fizzbuzz tests really that necessary? I have a hard time believing anybody could get an interview, let alone graduate with a BS in compsci, without being able to do something THAT simple ....

You have clearly never had to interview people. Fizzbuzz is super basic and that's the point. It quickly separates the person who was around when programming happened and someone that actually did the programming.

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#340

Post by jshen » Thu, May 03, 2012, 6:20 PM UTC

Apreche wrote: post #328

luser001 wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is this more precise? You said "rare", and the other party heard "rare", but guys never agreed on what "very rare" was. Believe me, people can have very different ideas about what "very rare" means in this context. :)

There is probably some circumstance I would work a little extra. Seriously, you want ever comment on every blog to be written like a legal contract or a game rulebook? I wasn't about to devote an entire paragraph covering every possible scenario where I may or may not work more or less hours. You get the idea.

rather than implying that the people who took you at your word did something wrong, you should admit that you used a poor choice of words.

As I said, you could simply have said, "I will only work OT in exceptional cases, and these cases should be rare". It doesn't take an entire paragraph to get this point across. You get the idea.