Want good programmers? Then pay them. • Hacker News Board

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#301

Post by skerrit_bwoy » Thu, May 03, 2012, 5:24 PM UTC

bmelton wrote: post #275

skerrit_bwoy wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

WHY DO PROGRAMMERS THINK LIKE THIS? A radiologist makes $350k whether he's in Manhattan or Memphis. A hedge fund analyst makes comparable, whether he's in LA or Louisville. A BIGLAWyer makes comparable, whether he's in Chicago or Charlestown. They are paid for the value of services rendered, and the doctors, bankers, and lawyers I know seem perfectly content to maximize their income while minimizing their expenses. O…

I don't think that's true at all, actually. I just did some (admittedly) anecdotal job searches for radiology, and there's a $150k price difference between New York and Indiana. I knew a few attorneys that have moved into the DC area to raise their rates (and one who commutes two hours in to DC because otherwise, his billable rate is halved.) The positions people are paid also depend on the cost of living in the area…

You've got it exactly twisted about docs, read this for clarity: http://www.medscape.com/features/slideshow/compensation/2012...

Choice quote: "As in Medscape's 2011 survey, the highest-earning physicians practice in the North Central region, comprising Iowa, Missouri, Kansas, Nebraska, and South and North Dakota; the mean income of physicians there is $234,000. The next-highest earners were doctors in the Great Lakes region ($228,000). Physicians in the Northeast earned the least, at a mean of $204,000."

As for attorneys, I said BIGLAW. Not "get local joe bob out of jail." (But law does have a bifurcated career path, i.e. T14 or bust these days.)

I note your silence about hedge fund analysts.

Here are the people who are paid in accordance with COL: labor. Programmers seem to think of themselves as laborers, despite having the intellectual caliber to be professionals. Or maybe I am overestimating my tribe. Perhaps we just anemic right hemispheres in our brain, leading to savant-like abilities in the left, leading to the warm embrace of pathetic compensation.

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#302

Post by rdtsc » Thu, May 03, 2012, 5:24 PM UTC

cletus wrote: post #264

The comparison to equity being getting paid in lottery tickets is apt (IMHO). Nevertheless there has never been a short of pioneering spirits willing to risk it all to strike it rich (just look at the gold rushes in the Dakotas, California and elsewhere). This is really the modern day equivalent. There was a thread here last year where people talked about their exits. A common story was "worked my ass off for X years…

> particularly the 30 days paid vacation a year. In Europe maybe. In the US? Good luck.

Thanks.

I get 25 and in 4 years I'll get 30. You just have to work for the right company.

As you get older you'll notice that extra money you make from working at a workplace that is giving you only 2 weeks of vacation and expects you to work 50+ hours a week means less and less. As you are getting closer to death the utility of the money you make goes down. A company that makes you take time away from your family is not worth it.

Work is fun and is great but that is a hobby. My family is my real focus in life and I will do all I can to spend as much time with them.

I am just saying that you can find places to work that is not a startup (if you don't want to expose yourself and your family to that risk), you just have to look.

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#303

Post by luser001 » Thu, May 03, 2012, 5:26 PM UTC

jshen wrote: post #224

Avshalom wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Precision isn't accuracy, and pedantic precision isn't super common in casual conversation anyway. Look I can't speak for the OP, maybe ze would quit the first week ze's expected to work 40hours and 1 minute. Saying "no more than 40 hours, unless a tornado hits the data center; or my close friend and co-worker's mother dies and he asks me to stay a little late to finish some of his paper work; or a bomb will go off k…

pedantic precision should be common for a programmer. This is really easy, he could have said, "I will only work overtime in exceptional cases, and those should be very rare." This is what I usually say in interviews. "under no circumstances will I work overtime" has a very clear meaning.

How is this more precise? You said "rare", and the other party heard "rare", but guys never agreed on what "very rare" was. Believe me, people can have very different ideas about what "very rare" means in this context. :)

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#304

Post by noodleey » Thu, May 03, 2012, 5:27 PM UTC

I can say exactly the same thing for designers. Want good designers? Pay them good.

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#305

Post by tensor » Thu, May 03, 2012, 5:28 PM UTC

eli_gottlieb wrote: post #279

tensor wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed. Also, he seems to want the pendulum to swing from the employee courting companies to the company courting employees. Personally, I think there should be a mutual respect between an employer and employee. Further, someone whose sole goal is not to work, as it seems here, is probably not someone you really want to work with nor to start his own company. There are certainly a lot of people who do in fact do noth…

He didn't say he would do nothing when he got rich. He said he would code whatever he wanted, without regard to making money. Big difference. An independently wealthy person could become a star of the open-source world.

That is true. However, his comment still seems downright hostile towards anyone he might work with. It comes across as though he tolerates working with people only by force and has no respect for his coworkers at all.

No doubt his phrasing is overboard, perhaps due to a poor working environment or mistreatment by management. Personally, even I "won the lottery" tomorrow, I would not just abandon the projects I'm working on and the people I'm working with. I enjoy the work and respect the people.

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#306

Post by potatolicious » Thu, May 03, 2012, 5:29 PM UTC

cletus wrote: post #264

The comparison to equity being getting paid in lottery tickets is apt (IMHO). Nevertheless there has never been a short of pioneering spirits willing to risk it all to strike it rich (just look at the gold rushes in the Dakotas, California and elsewhere). This is really the modern day equivalent. There was a thread here last year where people talked about their exits. A common story was "worked my ass off for X years…

I really disagree with the notion of the post here, and I think this part really nails why:

> "Thing is, I'm never looking at my watch because I enjoy what I do."

So do I. In fact, I love what I do. I'd be extremely disappointed if I had to stop going to work.

But it isn't the only thing I enjoy. You want stable hours and liberal time off because there is more enjoyment to your life than writing code and creating software. I dislike long hours not because I dislike what I do at work, but because my life is more than my work. I have other passions, hobbies, people, other things I want to be able to commit to.

> "Fine. Whatever. You've made other life choices. I get it."

And so have you - so we'd appreciate it if you stop referring to the rest of us as entitled and petulant. I respect your choice to throw the entirety of your life at your primary craft - so respect our choice not to.

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#307

Post by pjmlp » Thu, May 03, 2012, 5:29 PM UTC

cletus wrote: post #264

The comparison to equity being getting paid in lottery tickets is apt (IMHO). Nevertheless there has never been a short of pioneering spirits willing to risk it all to strike it rich (just look at the gold rushes in the Dakotas, California and elsewhere). This is really the modern day equivalent. There was a thread here last year where people talked about their exits. A common story was "worked my ass off for X years…

30 vacation days with 40 hour work week is standard in most European countries.

Why should we sell out private life to corporations?

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#308

Post by luser001 » Thu, May 03, 2012, 5:30 PM UTC

mseebach wrote: post #147

throwaway1979 wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm really glad you mentioned "cute little puzzles". I am sick of them. I'm not really sure who has sufficient time to spend blazing the employer with feats of their programming prowess (I was going to say only undergrads would do that - however, many undergrads in top programs have little time to bathe). If this was big companies being stupid, I'd get it. The HN crowd ... some of the smartest hackers around do littl…

If a recruiter goes after you, and didn't bother to Google your name and look at your GitHub/OS contributions etc. he's obviously cold calling and wasting your time. He's the guy who asks DHH how much Rails experience he's got. But, on the other hand, if you apply to a company, especially one that's more or less famous, puzzles are a very good way of separating the wheat from the chaff on a level playing field. Evalu…

> Do you really think it's fair to require Stripe to assign a member of their engineering team (that means you after they hire you) to review every strangers GitHub accounts, when you refuse to invest even a little time in signalling to them that you're the real deal (the puzzles aren't all multi-day endeavours)?

Yes.

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#309

Post by kamaal » Thu, May 03, 2012, 5:34 PM UTC

msg wrote: post #198

randomdata wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are boring though. If I have to take a programming test, I'd rather take that time build a real feature onto your product, even if for free. If you like the results, at least I've created real value for my time, not just played a silly game. There's a risk that you won't like the results and it will be thrown away, but that's a reasonable gamble.

I think some of the ITA programming puzzles (for instance) are fun on their own merits. Not to get too meta, but what if the company essentially buys your argument? "Yes, this is a non-real world problem for entertainment purposes only..." But they want to find programmers who find such problems entertaining.

Filtering only goes so far. If you rely on these tactics instead of asking the actual questions. You will very soon end up hiring people who know nothing about the real world, but would have memorized tons of interview trivia.

The problem with puzzles is just that. You ask questions and hire candidates based on issues that have nothing related to the job. The end result is you up hiring the wrong people and then say you can't find good programmers.

You can't find good programmers because you are not asking questions meant to hire good programmers. You wanted puzzle experts and that is what you got.

Re: Want good programmers? Then pay them.

#310

Post by skerrit_bwoy » Thu, May 03, 2012, 5:34 PM UTC

kitsune_ wrote: post #55

pavlov wrote: post #7

Wake up, people: Are you serious? You want highly specialized people with actual skills, and expect them to be OK with that comparable low payment? If the same person sits down and starts creating his own software, he will probably earn much more one year later by himself already. Probably not. Most programmers don't have any idea what software sells and how to sell it.

I seriously doubt that. It's not like most programmers live in a bubble and never have contact with other people. As a programmer you usually accumulate detailed domain knowledge in a variety of industries. You often end up knowing more about the core business of a company than their individual stakeholders and employees. Programming requires specifications, and often, an IT project forces companies to identify and f…

Most programmers are retarded about everything but programming. Everybody knows this, hence Big Bang Theory, nerd culture, etc.

Acid test: how good are you at picking up chicks? That's a pretty good proxy measure of how good you'll be at sales/marketing.